God vs. Atheism: Which is More Rational?

[PRB]

http://www.prageruniversity.com/Reli...l#.U0Xb4thOV3c

Interesting piece....please keep/add any comments in the tone of the speaker for rebuttal / agreement or query.

[Peregrino]

Originally Posted by PRB

http://www.prageruniversity.com/Reli...l#.U0Xb4thOV3c

Interesting piece....please keep/add any comments in the tone of the speaker for rebuttal / agreement or query.

Interesting. This is now YOUR baby. You get to keep it from becoming as devolved as the recent (totally worthless - only reason it hasn't been deleted is because I find most censorship offensive) Creationism vs. Evolution thread.

[PRB]

No kidding.
I enjoy heated articulate opinions on difficult subjects ergo the lead in comments.
If one does not want to comment or partake go elsewhere.
BTW, engaging ones gray matter on difficult subjects, even those that are open ended, are never worthless endeavors.

[Trapper John]

Great post CSM and it begins with one of my favorite philosopher/theologians, Thomas Aquinas.

As I tried to argue in the evolution thread (not very well), the more completely we understand the laws of nature, the closer we come to seeing the face of God. IMO atheism is illogical and lacks a deeper understanding of natural law and its true meaning. All that we perceive in Creation is the result of Natural Law (God), this is an undeniable fact and requires no faith, just logic. Atheism, on the other hand, must be based entirely on faith, i.e. lacking any shred of evidence to back that viewpoint.

And one more thing. Being the only species (as far as we know) that can contemplate such things places a great deal of responsibility on our shoulders as "care-takers" to act accordingly. That is the meaning of God's will or the will of Nature.

Atheism places no special responsibility on humans, and I would argue that atheism makes us no more special than a worm.

[PRB]

I know some folks dislike the subject but I find debate about important subjects keeps me from going senile (I think).
I understand the incredulity as it comes to accepting a higher being but I believe believing in nothingness creating our universe to be a much further reach...my opinion.
Regardless, I know there are some very smart folks here that will offer counter point and I respect that.

[Trapper John]

Originally Posted by PRB

No kidding.
I enjoy heated articulate opinions on difficult subjects ergo the lead in comments.
If one does not want to comment or partake go elsewhere.
BTW, engaging ones gray matter on difficult subjects, even those that are open ended, are never worthless endeavors.

Couldn't agree more CSM

Perigrino - See we are in disagreement and the universe is back in order.

BTW, do I get any cross-thread points for that one.

[Richard]

"...the laws of nature & of nature’s god..."

http://jeffersonpapers.princeton.edu...independence-0

Beyond that...?

Richard

[Peregrino]

Originally Posted by Trapper John

Couldn't agree more CSM

Perigrino - See we are in disagreement and the universe is back in order.

BTW, do I get any cross-thread points for that one.

No. And no.

I'm a deist. Like all of us I've spent far too much time in shitholes with nothing better to do than contemplate my navel and ponder the meaning of life. I've reached the personal conclusion that there has to be something - a cause - that explains the wonder and order of the universe. Thomas Aquinas and I do agree on a few things and that is one of them. Call it God if you will. I also reached the inescapable (to me) conclusion that attempting to "ken" the All was hubris (and I am not a humble person so you can imagine the effort it took to achieve that enlightenment). I now limit my introspections to lesser extravagances - like how do I conduct myself so that I can face the balance at the end of days, answer for my choices, and still live my life so as to exert neutral/good influence in a world that seems to be trending chaotic/evil.

Personally, I think atheism is as much a religion as anything else and find most of their arguments as baseless as they claim religion is. Poor is the man who can believe in nothing greater than himself. MOO - YMMV. And that's OK too.

[Trapper John]

Uh-oh

Poor is the man who can believe in nothing greater than himself.

we have just found the 2nd point of convergence of opinion.

[craigepo]

Totally agree with the piece. I often think of how neat it would have been to be one of the Apostles (except for that whole being martyred thing). Or to at least have a "burning bush" moment like Moses (except my friends would accuse me of picking and eating the wrong kind of spring mushrooms).

I once read the odds of an explosion such as the Big Bang creating life from the blast, with the odds being astronomically against.

One thing I can't get my head around is how to define time, and how "time" would work in various settings, i.e. if I were craigepo the eternal angel, but was looking down on a world that was temporal. I think the time/fossil record/New Earth/Old Earth issue divides a lot of intelligent people's opinions.

[BryanK]

Interesting viewpoints from what I briefly researched on Deism. It places a term to the way I have grown in my own belief of a single creator. I haven't spent nearly the amount of time as most of you have in shithole locations, just a single tour in Iraq, and a lot of time spent at more awe inspiring locations such as A.P. Hill, et al. However, during my downtime spent far from family and friends, and taking long walks in the woods with weighted pack, it does allow for a lot of introspection time. My conclusion is that no single religion or lack of belief in a deity/higher power can be correct.

Too many centuries have past where too many men have translated and transcribed the works or understandings of others. Knowing this, and having an understanding of the way politics and religion were in our distant past as humans, I refuse to believe that the actual words or prophecies have not been tampered with. I believe that they've been altered to suit whoever was in power at whatever place in time across the world, for whatever selfish reasons they had in order to obtain absolute rule.

The presence of God (which is my name for my higher power), IMO cannot logically be denied; causality is real. There has to be a beginning and even an end to everything. Atheism stresses that essentially we're all just "here". I believe this to be an ignorant and lazy approach to life, and possibly the reason we're seeing immoral and illogical actions increasing daily. I know wikipedia is not that reliable of a source, but for all intents and purposes, here is a quote pulled from their page:

Arguments for atheism range from the philosophical to social and historical approaches. Rationales for not believing in any supernatural deity include the lack of empirical evidence, the problem of evil, the argument from inconsistent revelations, rejection of concepts which cannot be falsified, and the argument from nonbelief. Although some atheists have adopted secular philosophies, there is no one ideology or set of behaviors to which all atheists adhere. Many atheists hold that atheism is a more parsimonious worldview than theism, and therefore the burden of proof lies not on the atheist to disprove the existence of God, but on the theist to provide a rationale for theism.

Lack of empirical evidence...hmm. Whenever I am asked by an atheist how I can believe in something I cannot see, and that has not been proven, I explain it to them the way it was explained to me. I ask them if they believe in wind, and they will immediately say "of course, that is proven". My simple retort is that "wind is not visible, but you can feel it right?" That's how I feel about the presence of God. I have personally seen and felt drastic and impossible interventions over the course of my life that cannot be written off as mere coincidence.

To have a lack of faith or belief in a higher power, is to have a lack of faith or belief in morality, and it only serves as an excuse to be mediocre or worse, but of course YMMV.

[1stindoor]

Originally Posted by craigepo

Totally agree with the piece. I often think of how neat it would have been to be one of the Apostles (except for that whole being martyred thing). Or to at least have a "burning bush" moment like Moses (except my friends would accuse me of picking and eating the wrong kind of spring mushrooms)....

I've often said that those that are waiting for the large miraculous events, i.e. the burning bush, often miss the daily miracles that happen around them.

[Dusty]

Any belief in any deity other than God, Jesus Christ and the Holy Ghost is irrational.

[x SF med]

Aquinas, Augustine and Pascal... all have argued it, and the consensus is... belief in God is the most logical outcome. Moot point, and the Paradox of Belief is a very basic premise for the teaching of Formal Argumentative Logic. The Author if the article is derivative and unoriginal.

Sorry if any of the criticism is offensive CSM.

[PRB]

Not offended in any way...if it is unoriginal/derivative is it valid or not so?