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Old 11-23-2004, 13:41   #1
Roguish Lawyer
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Hunting Deaths

More details coming out on this now.

http://www.cnn.com/2004/LAW/11/23/hu....ap/index.html

Hunter suspect says he was shot at first
Tuesday, November 23, 2004 Posted: 2:04 PM EST (1904 GMT)

HAYWARD, Wisconsin (AP) -- A man suspected in the killings of six hunters told investigators he began firing after he was shot at first and some of the victims called him racially derogatory names, according to documents filed Tuesday.

A judge set bail at $2.5 million for Chai Vang, 36, of St. Paul, Minnestora, who is suspected in the killings Sunday of six deer hunters and the wounding of two others.

Bail was set after investigators filed documents arguing there was probable cause to hold Vang in the shootings. No charges have been filed.

Vang, a Hmong immigrant from Laos, was arrested Sunday about four hours after the shootings as he emerged from the woods with his empty SKS 7.62 mm semiautomatic rifle.

Sawyer County Sheriff Jim Meier said a dispute over Vang's use of a tree stand -- a raised platform used by hunters -- on private property preceded the gunfire.

Vang told investigators he didn't realize he was on private property when he climbed the tree stand, according to the probable-cause statement released Tuesday.

A hunter approached Vang to tell him he was on private property, and Vang started to leave as other hunters approached, the statement said. Vang said the hunters surrounded him, and some started calling him racial slurs.

Vang said he started walking away but looked back to see the first hunter point his rifle at him and then fire a shot that hit the ground 30 to 40 feet behind him, the statement said.

That's when Vang told investigators he started firing at the group, and some fell to the ground and others tried to run away, according to the statement.

Five people died at the scene and a sixth died Monday in a hospital. Two others were wounded.

The dead were identified as the landowner, Robert Crotteau, 42; his son Joey, 20; Al Laski, 43; Mark Roidt, 28; Jessica Willers, 27; and Denny Drew, 55, who died Monday at St. Joseph's Hospital in Marshfield.

Willers' father, Terry Willers, remained hospitalized Tuesday in fair condition, while the other wounded hunter was released.

Officials said the victims were part of a group of 14 or 15 who made their opening-weekend trip to the 400-acre property an annual tradition.

"This was his first time out with that group. He was delighted to be invited," said Karen Roidt, mother of victim Mark Roidt.

According to an account by authorities Monday, two or three hunters spotted a man in a hunting platform on Crotteau's land, then radioed back to the rest of the party at a cabin nearby, and were told no one who should be there.

One of the men approached the intruder and asked him to leave, as Crotteau and the others in the cabin hopped on their all-terrain vehicles and headed to the scene, according to the account.

"The suspect got down from the deer stand, walked 40 yards, fiddled with his rifle. He took the scope off his rifle, he turned and he opened fire on the group," Meier said.

One of the men called for help on his radio, and those who arrived to help also were shot, authorities said.

He was "chasing after them and killing them," Deputy Tim Zeigle said. "He hunted them down." There was only one firearm among the eight hunters and it was unclear whether anyone returned fire, authorities had said.

Some Hmong leaders had questioned whether racial differences may have figured in the shootings.

Sang Vang said his family was devastated, and that his brother has lived in the United States for more than 20 years and is a U.S. Army veteran.

Minneapolis police said they arrested Vang on Christmas Eve 2001 after he waved a gun and threatened to kill his wife. No charge was brought because she didn't cooperate with authorities, spokesman Ron Reier said. Police in St. Paul said there had been two domestic violence calls to his home in the past year, but both were resolved without incident.

There have been previous clashes between Southeast Asian and white hunters in the region. Locals in the Birchwood area, about 120 miles northeast of the Twin Cities, have complained that the Hmong, refugees from Laos, do not understand the concept of private property and hunt wherever they see fit.

Vang's arrest left some Hmong citizens in his hometown fearful of a backlash, and a group of Hmong leaders in St. Paul condemned the shootings Tuesday and offered condolences to victims' families.

"What happened in Wisconsin is in no way representative of the Hmong people and what they stand for," said Cha Vang, who said he was representing "the greater law-abiding Hmong community." He is no relation to Chai Vang.

About 24,000 Hmong live in St. Paul, the highest concentration of any U.S. city. And the shooting has already provoked racial tension in an area of Wisconsin where deer hunting is steeped in tradition.

Minnesota state Sen. Mee Moua rejected the idea that cultural differences played any role in the shooting.

"We're all just speculating that may have been a trigger for him," said Moua, who is Hmong. "We're all searching for answers."
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Old 11-23-2004, 14:04   #2
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Sounds like a poacher to me. Some of these folks might have a problem with the game laws.
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Old 11-23-2004, 14:49   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1026
Sounds like a poacher to me. Some of these folks might have a problem with the game laws.
He had a number on, he had a license, he was using a centerfire rifle.

Only poaching he was doing was hunting on someone else's property.

Damn shame a Yard came here and killed six citizens of the country that took him in.

We do not have all of the facts, be interesting to see which version of the story holds up. So far it is a he said-she said.

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Old 11-23-2004, 14:54   #4
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Let's hope they do some good forensics work. That's what it is going to take to sort this out.
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Old 11-23-2004, 15:10   #5
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1026,

This guy was not poaching though I do agree with the article you posted. Many Hmong simply do not understand the hunting regulations but they are not violating out of spite, just lack of knowledge. This guy has no excuse. He was an avid hunter according to his family and damn well should have known the rules. He has been in the country since 1980, served in the U.S. Army and spoke and read fluent english. He was a liscensed deer hunter according to LE press releases. That was how they found out who he was so fast, by his tag number. Every deer hunter in Wisconsin has to wear their tag number on their back so hunters can report poachers and regulation violators to the DNR. One of the wounded gave his tag number to law enforcement and another scratched it into the dusty seat cover of an ATV. This guy was however trespassing and in the wrong to be in a stand on private property without permission. The hunters on this board will tell you that doing that is a hunting no-no. My Dad and I were hunting about 35 miles from the scene when it happened. He called me on my radio and told me about it before a couple hours after it happened before they caught the guy. Thats how fast the word spread. Then I get home today and find out I went to high school with one of the murdered. Damn small world. RIP Mark Roidt and to all the other victims.

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Old 11-23-2004, 16:26   #6
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I normaly wouldnt post here but...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shark Bait
Let's hope they do some good forensics work.

...they can do all the forensics they want....nothing can change the fact that he single handedly chased down and killed six experienced hunters mostly within a hundred yard radius. With an SKS carbine no less.

People hunt on both sides of the border between MN and WI. Everyone but everyone knows not to climb someone's tree stand...
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Old 11-23-2004, 16:39   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ccrn
...they can do all the forensics they want....nothing can change the fact that he single handedly chased down and killed six experienced hunters mostly within a hundred yard radius. With an SKS carbine no less.

People hunt on both sides of the border between MN and WI. Everyone but everyone knows not to climb someone's tree stand...
The most telling thing I have heard is that there was only one rifle among the six killed.

You can claim self-defense on the one with the rifle threatening you. "Why did you expend 20 rounds and kill five unarmed people, Sir, before then fleeing the scene?"

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Old 11-23-2004, 17:54   #8
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I don't know about Wisconsin, but hunting on private property without permission in Ohio is poaching. You must have signed permission from the landowner in your possession; it's 60 days in jail and a $500.00 fine for first offense.

I just hope the Sheriff can build a good case against Mr. Vang.

Last edited by 1026; 11-23-2004 at 17:58.
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Old 11-23-2004, 18:04   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ccrn
...they can do all the forensics they want....nothing can change the fact that he single handedly chased down and killed six experienced hunters mostly within a hundred yard radius. With an SKS carbine no less.

People hunt on both sides of the border between MN and WI. Everyone but everyone knows not to climb someone's tree stand...
ccrn,

I have come across many a deserted tree stand out in the woods here, in Nevada, and in Colorado. Some you can plainly tell have been used recently and/ or are someones property however, some are not so easily recongizable as someones property. Mr. Vang could have made an honest mistake (as far as the tree stand goes).

On another issue: Anyone used or know someone who has used an SKS for deer hunting? I'm nieve as to hunting regulations or practices in the mid-west, or eastern states. Is hunting with an SKS common in these areas?

Lastly this guy had to be a pretty damn good shot to kill 5 or 6 guys with an SKS. Any guess or intel on how many rounds he fired?
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Old 11-23-2004, 18:16   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Smokin Joe
ccrn,

I have come across many a deserted tree stand out in the woods here, in Nevada, and in Colorado. Some you can plainly tell have been used recently and/ or are someones property however, some are not so easily recongizable as someones property. Mr. Vang could have made an honest mistake (as far as the tree stand goes).

On another issue: Anyone used or know someone who has used an SKS for deer hunting? I'm nieve as to hunting regulations or practices in the mid-west, or eastern states. Is hunting with an SKS common in these areas?

Lastly this guy had to be a pretty damn good shot to kill 5 or 6 guys with an SKS. Any guess or intel on how many rounds he fired?
Yes, the 7.62x39 is a decent deer cartridge, close to the .30-30 with the right ammo.

Ranges are usually shorter and the deer smaller than out West.

He allegedly fired 20 rounds, but was a former soldier of some description, so if the other side is not shooting back (and may be running away), that is not that great.

TR
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Old 11-23-2004, 19:27   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Reaper
Damn shame a Yard came here and killed six citizens of the country that took him in.

TR

I thought I read he was Hmong.
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Old 11-23-2004, 19:46   #12
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I wanna know who's team he came off of.
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Old 11-23-2004, 21:58   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Reaper
Yes, the 7.62x39 is a decent deer cartridge, close to the .30-30 with the right ammo.

Ranges are usually shorter and the deer smaller than out West.

He allegedly fired 20 rounds, but was a former soldier of some description, so if the other side is not shooting back (and may be running away), that is not that great.

TR

Thank you TR.

My line of thinking is this: Most deer or elk hunters I know carry maybe 10 rounds of ammo for their hunting rifle, and maybe a sidearm with another 10 or so rounds. This guy fired about 20 rounds, why was he carrying that much ammo for his SKS? Furthermore how many times did he have to reload? The SKS come with a 5 round box magazine right? Well, if so that is 4 reloads right? or he could have a 20 or 30 round mag in it but if that was the case wouldn't the high cap mag violate hunting regs in the first place?

Its a difficult call for sure. Its a real tragedy either way. Atleast 6 lives ruined over a disagreement.
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Old 11-23-2004, 22:12   #14
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Originally Posted by Smokin Joe
Thank you TR.

My line of thinking is this: Most deer or elk hunters I know carry maybe 10 rounds of ammo for their hunting rifle, and maybe a sidearm with another 10 or so rounds. This guy fired about 20 rounds, why was he carrying that much ammo for his SKS? Furthermore how many times did he have to reload? The SKS come with a 5 round box magazine right? Well, if so that is 4 reloads right? or he could have a 20 or 30 round mag in it but if that was the case wouldn't the high cap mag violate hunting regs in the first place?

Its a difficult call for sure. Its a real tragedy either way. Atleast 6 lives ruined over a disagreement.
Original SKS has a 10 round mag, reloadable in a few seconds with stripper clips. Aftermarket 30 round mags are available, as is a detachable mag conversion.

I can see where he might have had 10 in the rifle and one spare stripper in his pocket, which would mean one reload max, with the stock rifle.

Apparently, he has already admitted setting up to ambush those who came to help their friends, and finishing off some of the unarmed victims.

Not sure that there is a limit on number of rifle rounds in the mag for that state. Normally, that is a wildfowl hunting restriction for shotguns.

I don't think that even if they fired in his general direction and called him every name in the book, that he is going to skate on killing five unarmed people with an SKS.

TR
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Old 11-23-2004, 22:36   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NousDefionsDoc
I wanna know who's team he came off of.
LOL... Unless you guys were hiring toddlers back then, I figure he's just another dirtbag who couldn't assimilate. He's reported to be a former member of the Green Machine, a 10 percenter who has a history of domestic violence.
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