11-22-2004, 19:31
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#1
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Quiet Professional
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Medics and the Law of Land Warfare
Hey lawyers!
I had a guy tell me today "Medics can only be defensively armed" and I think we touched this subject before. I was only ever a SOMED, so I don't know about regular medics. I was reading here:
http://www.globalsecurity.org/milita...-10/Ch4.htm#s3
Which I think is the applicable piece, but my take is it only applies to members of a medical unit, not line medics in an infantry outfit. Anythoughts?
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NousDefionsDoc is offline
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11-22-2004, 19:43
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#2
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Consigliere
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by NousDefionsDoc
Hey lawyers!
I had a guy tell me today "Medics can only be defensively armed" and I think we touched this subject before. I was only ever a SOMED, so I don't know about regular medics. I was reading here:
http://www.globalsecurity.org/milita...-10/Ch4.htm#s3
Which I think is the applicable piece, but my take is it only applies to members of a medical unit, not line medics in an infantry outfit. Anythoughts? |
This is not my area, and I'd probably need at least a few hours in an adequate international law library to figure it out definitively. But here are some uneducated and possibly incorrect thoughts. I'm sure AL will be along shortly with the truth. 
I don't see a definition of the term "medical unit," but one would think that it means a unit that is principally medical in purpose. You seem to be a soldier with medical training, not a medic who may happen to be carrying a sidearm, so it probably doesn't apply to you. Then again, I can think of some circumstances where it might. For example, if you are not attacking anyone and focusing entirely on treating wounded, it might apply. Or at least that seems to be the intention of the thing.
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Roguish Lawyer is offline
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11-22-2004, 19:47
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#3
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I know it doesn't apply to SO Medics. What I am interested in is whether it applies to line 91Bs, Corpsmen on Marine duty etc. I don't think it does because they are not part of a medical unit.
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Somewhere a True Believer is training to kill you. He is training with minimal food or water, in austere conditions, training day and night. The only thing clean on him is his weapon and he made his web gear. He doesn't worry about what workout to do - his ruck weighs what it weighs, his runs end when the enemy stops chasing him. This True Believer is not concerned about 'how hard it is;' he knows either he wins or dies. He doesn't go home at 17:00, he is home.
He knows only The Cause.
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NousDefionsDoc is offline
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11-22-2004, 19:54
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#4
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Consigliere
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by NousDefionsDoc
I know it doesn't apply to SO Medics. What I am interested in is whether it applies to line 91Bs, Corpsmen on Marine duty etc. I don't think it does because they are not part of a medical unit.
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Well, that's the question: what is a "medical unit" under this law? I have no idea how these things are interpreted. If it were a U.S. statute, you would look for cases, regulations and legislative history to try to understand what it means.
I was never terribly interested in international law because it seems pretty stupid to me. If two nations disagree over what a treaty means, there really isn't an effective method of dispute resolution. You have international courts of limited power, and then you have diplomacy and war. The lawyers don't seem to matter much in that context. But maybe I'm missing something.
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Roguish Lawyer is offline
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11-22-2004, 20:07
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#5
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Right, I agree, we wait for AL. 
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Somewhere a True Believer is training to kill you. He is training with minimal food or water, in austere conditions, training day and night. The only thing clean on him is his weapon and he made his web gear. He doesn't worry about what workout to do - his ruck weighs what it weighs, his runs end when the enemy stops chasing him. This True Believer is not concerned about 'how hard it is;' he knows either he wins or dies. He doesn't go home at 17:00, he is home.
He knows only The Cause.
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NousDefionsDoc is offline
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11-23-2004, 05:16
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#6
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by NousDefionsDoc
Hey lawyers!
I had a guy tell me today "Medics can only be defensively armed"...
...Which I think is the applicable piece, but my take is it only applies to members of a medical unit, not line medics in an infantry outfit. Anythoughts?
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Well if line medics aren't to be armed then the entire Eighty Deuce is in violation.
That having been stated, I am of the understanding and opinion the provision as written, "fixed establishments and mobile medical units of the Medical Service," refers to those working in a medical unit and not to those working as line medics in maneuver units.
Then again what do I know.
Crip
Edited for grammar
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Last edited by Surgicalcric; 11-23-2004 at 09:57.
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11-23-2004, 06:42
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#7
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I assume the logic of this assumes that if a medic is only defensively armed then the other combatants will respect that and not engage them. Last time I looked that red cross made a great object on which to boresight your weapon. The folks that came up with this are the same ones that want to make warfare more "humane". Now tell me, do you die more humanely because you were hit by a smaller caliber round or a .50cal API? Perhaps it is just that you medics out there are just kinder, gentler warriors?
Jack Moroney
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Jack Moroney (RIP) is offline
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11-23-2004, 07:41
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#8
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Jack Moroney
I assume the logic of this assumes that if a medic is only defensively armed then the other combatants will respect that and not engage them. Last time I looked that red cross made a great object on which to boresight your weapon. The folks that came up with this are the same ones that want to make warfare more "humane". Now tell me, do you die more humanely because you were hit by a smaller caliber round or a .50cal API? Perhaps it is just that you medics out there are just kinder, gentler warriors?
Jack Moroney
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I'm with Jack. The original intent was more to protect the medics. If a medic is not offensively armed he is a non-combatant. If he is armed, he is fair game. OTOH sometimes it seems that the only combatants who are expected to comply with international law is the U.S.A.
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QRQ 30 is offline
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11-23-2004, 08:16
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#9
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The following is from a class on the Law of Land Warfare:
Unlawful Targets:
1. Medical personnel of the Armed Forces.
( a.)Doctors, nurses, surgeons, chemist, stretcher bearers, Medics, Corpsman, and orderlies who are exclusively engaged in the direct care of the wounded and sick.
( b.) Administrative staffs of medical units (drivers, generator operators and cooks).
(c.) Chaplains.
The key part for this discussion is "exclusively engaged in the direct care of the wounded and sick".
Note that this does not say anything about what weapons can or cannot be carried. If a medic stops work on a casualty and starts firing a weapon then they become a lawful target.
As QRQ said, in Iraq this is purely academic anyway since we are the only ones over there that ever heard of the law of land warfare.
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Jo Sul is offline
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11-23-2004, 08:35
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Crip, it doesn't say unarmed, there are provisions for self-defense/defense of patients under their care.
This is one of those outdated/irrelevant parts of the GC. I have no doubt that if a homocide bomber was given the opportunity, he would gleefully blow a hospital off the map.
I was told some units have line medics armed with M4s, but are not allowing them to put optics for example, for they feel they would be in violation.
My take is this article does not apply to line medics and if you wear a uniform, you are a target and need to be proactive.
__________________
Somewhere a True Believer is training to kill you. He is training with minimal food or water, in austere conditions, training day and night. The only thing clean on him is his weapon and he made his web gear. He doesn't worry about what workout to do - his ruck weighs what it weighs, his runs end when the enemy stops chasing him. This True Believer is not concerned about 'how hard it is;' he knows either he wins or dies. He doesn't go home at 17:00, he is home.
He knows only The Cause.
Still want to quit?
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NousDefionsDoc is offline
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11-23-2004, 08:46
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#11
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I think y'all are missing the point. The intent wasn't to disarm the medics. The intent was to protect them. As long as they were not fighting they were to be protected. If they take up arms they are fair game. IIRC this was discussed in training group and the vast majority would chose to be armed combatants rather than sitting ducks.
Please note I said "intent" and past tense.
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QRQ 30 is offline
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11-23-2004, 08:59
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#12
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The following is from FM27-10:
b. Self-Defense Defined. Although medical personnel may carry arms for self-defense, they may not employ such arms against enemy forces acting in conformity with the law of war. These arms are for their personal defense and for the protection of the wounded and sick under their charge against marauders and other persons violating the law of war. Medical personnel who use their arms in circumstances not justified by the law of war expose themselves to penalties for violation of the law of war and, provided they have been given due warning to cease such acts, may also forfeit the protection of the medical unit or establishment of which they form part or which they are protecting.
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Jo Sul is offline
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11-23-2004, 09:04
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#13
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Right, I think "medical personnel" applies to people in a medical unit, not line medics in an infantry company.
__________________
Somewhere a True Believer is training to kill you. He is training with minimal food or water, in austere conditions, training day and night. The only thing clean on him is his weapon and he made his web gear. He doesn't worry about what workout to do - his ruck weighs what it weighs, his runs end when the enemy stops chasing him. This True Believer is not concerned about 'how hard it is;' he knows either he wins or dies. He doesn't go home at 17:00, he is home.
He knows only The Cause.
Still want to quit?
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NousDefionsDoc is offline
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11-23-2004, 09:56
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#14
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by NousDefionsDoc
Crip, it doesn't say unarmed, there are provisions for self-defense/defense of patients under their care... My take is this article does not apply to line medics and if you wear a uniform, you are a target and need to be proactive.
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Exactly.
I suppose I was typing this AM here in the Med-Shed before my brain started functioning. The lack of coffee this morning was retarding my thought and I did not get my point across well enough. I have since edited the above to make it more understandable.
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"It's better to die on your feet than live on your knees."
"Its not who I am underneath, but what I do that defines me" -Batman
"There are no obstacles, only opportunities for excellence."- NousDefionsDoc
Last edited by Surgicalcric; 11-23-2004 at 09:58.
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03-26-2008, 15:53
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#15
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Guerrilla
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RE; Medica & the Law of Land Warfare
I completed several combat tours with Marine Infantry units and one with Small Craft, And it never applied. We carried the same combat load as every other Marine. (weapons included) The only thing different was we had our medical gear also. We went on the offensive with our weapons until the cry Corpsman Up was heard, then we would go through the gates of hell to get to the wounded. We have also been trained as Scout Snipers at times.
FMF DOC
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Last edited by FMF DOC; 03-26-2008 at 15:55.
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