On the Run

[The Reaper]

Another scenario to play with.

You are at home and have five minutes notice that you are about to be raided by a vastly superior force. You need to execute your personal E&E plan.

The streets and roads are already covered for vehicle movement, so you will have to move out on foot to a safe area 100 miles away.

You already have a bug out bag prepared with 45 pounds of food, water, shelter, med gear, survival tools, etc. We can discuss the contents of the bag if you like.

You need to hit the woods on foot and may need to harvest game, defend yourself against predators, and engage small hostile teams. Try not to beat this scenario to death.

Your safe is open and you may grab as many weapons, mags, and as much ammo as you wish to carry.

What do you take and why?

TR

[Streck-Fu]

I grab the bag and my AR because it wins the ammo quantity/weight contest. I'd take 190 rounds of ammo because that is what I will have already loaded.
The alternative is the M1 Carbine but it lacks the range and accuracy.
2nd alternative is the Garand which has range and power in spades but weight and stripper clips are the drawbacks.

Is my destination fixed or am I just trying to get 100 miles away in any direction? I ask because I can move NE and avoid highways and major roads. Any other direction has me crossing interstates within 20 miles.

[The Reaper]

Originally Posted by Streck-Fu

I grab the bag and my AR because it wins the ammo quantity/weight contest. I'd take 190 rounds of ammo because that is what I will have already loaded.
The alternative is the M1 Carbine but it lacks the range and accuracy.
2nd alternative is the Garand which has range and power in spades but weight and stripper clips are the drawbacks.

Is my destination fixed or am I just trying to get 100 miles away in any direction? I ask because I can move NE and avoid highways and major roads. Any other direction has me crossing interstates within 20 miles.

You select the destination.

The distance has more to do with making for a reasonable load and requiring foraging/hunting/fishing as well as defense and necessitating several days and nights of movement.

No handgun or hunting weapons?

Not saying right or wrong, just trying to see your logic.

TR

[BryanK]

I live 1 block from a major waterway (Potomac river) and I have access to a boat. Will we be assuming these hooligans have a small navy? If so, I will be taking the river anyway with the wife at the helm, and me on the 700PSS. I'd also take my .22 rifle (semi-auto Marlin) and my M9 for any potential hunting needs or threats once we hit land again. Rations are covered, and we'd head north appx 100 miles to the folks house.

Once we hit land, it would be roughly a 20 mile hike after running up feeder streams/creeks. Not too bad.

[The Reaper]

For the purposes of this thread, it really doesn't matter what your plan is, how far it is, how you plan to get there, or where you plan on going, as long as you can quickly collect and take gear that will reasonably get you through a week to ten days of cross-country tactical movement in potentially hostile territory. You are allowed to engage hostiles, as you deem necessary.

The intent is to discuss weapons choices and possibly bug out bag contents.

I would expand the scenario to include guys stationed in theater, but their weapons selections would be significantly more limited. If there is interest, I will start another thread (or revive an old one) for E&R bags and contents.

TR

[Streck-Fu]

Originally Posted by The Reaper

You select the destination.

Ok, I'll choose 100 miles NE as it is far less populated and no major highways to be spotted crossing. There are several waterways as well to replenish water or fish from.

No handgun or hunting weapons?

I thought of the handgun as a given so to define it, make it a G17 with 4 magazines. As for a hunting weapon, you can't hunt game with an AR? I handload 65gr Sierra Gameking which will work well for game and 2 legged varmint. And .223/5.56 can be replenished easily if necessary.

I will start another thread (or revive an old one) for E&R bags and contents.

Because that thread exists, I did not rehash bag contents.

[The Reaper]

Originally Posted by Streck-Fu

Ok, I'll choose 100 miles NE as it is far less populated and no major highways to be spotted crossing. There are several waterways as well to replenish water or fish from.

I thought of the handgun as a given so to define it, make it a G17 with 4 magazines. As for a hunting weapon, you can't hunt game with an AR? I handload 65gr Sierra Gameking which will work well for game and 2 legged varmint. And .223/5.56 can be replenished easily if necessary.

Because that thread exists, I did not rehash bag contents.

Yes you can hunt with an AR, but I would not want to have to rely on it to stop a deer (or a bear, for that matter). It is an excellent anti-personnel weapon, is reasonably reliable, compact, accurate, relatively lightweight, and spare parts/mags/ammo are common.

To my logic, the primary purpose of the handgun would be to provide a back-up to the primary weapon in the event of a stoppage. Secondarily would be to harvest small game or dispatch small targets more quietly than the rifle.

Hey, just my perspective, anyone with a better one, I would like to hear it. Share the best practices and examine some alternative thinking. Rational dissenting opinions are welcome.

TR

[Sdiver]

Funny you brought this up T.R. I've thought about this scenario a few times already.

I have the luxury of living right next to the foothills, SW of D-town Denver, and there are several bike trails and greenbelts by my place which lead up into the hills, so I have a few routes already planned. ("Wolverines" ) I know of several caves and abandoned mines further up into the hills, so that would be a likely destination. Some are close to streams and small ponds (although I wouldn't count on the ponds being "fresh" next to the mines, but it is a water source).

Along with my bug out bag, the weapons I would grab would be:
Side arm: 1911 with 161 rounds. Two 50 round boxes, and eight mags ... 4 eight round and 4 seven round.
My M&P 15 with seven 30 round mags = 210 rounds (along with three empty mags)
The Garand with 80 rounds (ten clips) for the "far reaching" effect an M1 has.

I know this sounds crazy, but I'd also grab my Mossberg 500, along with two boxes of bird shot (one box of #7 and one box of #9), a box of slugs, and a box of 00. (twenty rounds each box).

I have a nice 5.11 "fanny pack" that I can fit the six 5.56 mags, the boxes of ammo and 1911 mags in, and still have room, which I can put in a cleaning kit for all weapons, along with some rags for quick wipe downs.

I know this sounds (looks) like a lot to hump up hill, but I always thought/planned, I could stash the fanny pack and one or two long guns, off trail, scout ahead, drop off what I've brought up, go back to the "stash, retrieve that and just "leap frog" as needed.

[bubba]

The trade offs of rifle v pistol:

Rifle / Carbine

Up Sides: If I get in a fight with a couple of folks, I have the advantage. If a deer etc is spotted, I am gonna eat well for a while.

Down Sides: I am an instant target to anyone who spots me. Ammo is heavy and may slow me down. I may feel like I can whip anyone and bight off more than I can chew.

Pistol

Up Sides: Small, light, and concealed. I can defend myself against an armed threat. If I am carrying a smaller caliber weapon, smaller "game" like dogs become a possibility. I am traveling light and "among the fish".

Down Sides: If I get in a fight with a couple folks, I am likely to be way out gunned. I can't take mid sized game.

Yup, my personnel conclusion for most situations is to only have a pistol, likely a 9mm Glock. My ability to move incognito is my greatest strength as a singleton. If possible, I would move to a safe location and recover a cache with a long gun or 2, but only if I was in a place where I could make friends and influence others / await pickup from a larger force that is on the way.

The only glaring excetpion would be somewhere like Somalia or Yemen where EVERYONE has an AK. Then, I'd definitely have one and 3-5 mags.

Just my thoughts.

[The Reaper]

Originally Posted by DocIllinois

100 miles all around me is nothing but flat cornfields dotted mostly with small farm towns. Its growing season but the corn isn't yet my height. Deer are present in the occasional draw. Possum, raccoon, rabbit, squirrel are plentiful. I'll go south, since it puts me further away from Chicago and it's suburbs.

Night travel.

Agree with Streck's AR and ammo selection.

Map and Silva compass. It can be a long way between landmarks, and cornfields can all start to look the same at night. Also a map case. Summer showers tend to be heavy.

Military issue bivy cover. Its hot here at the moment, even at night. Why carry something heavier?

Fjallkniven TK4 folder. Light, small enough when folded, heavy duty enough to disassemble anything up to a deer.

Roll of snare wire. Been hunting smaller game here with it since I was a kid.

Blastmatch firestarter & Wetfire tinder - light, all weather, 3x the heat of a match.

Doc:

Good plan.

I would prefer to bug out with a few more items. Personally, the categories of gear I would consider for mostly year round survival are:

Ruck/carrying bag must be light, durable, and contain/carry the following categories of items:

Fire starting and fuel- For fire in a semi- or non-permissive environment
Water container, collection, storage, and purification
Shelter or materials for dry, insect-free, and warmth
Cordage - Line, wire, tape, glue
Tools - Shelter building, firewood collecting, game prep, construction, repair
Signaling - As needed, probably less given the threat. Would pull the cell battery or ditch the phone, BTW.
First Aid - Trauma and general survival health
Food - Carried, hunting, trapping, fishing, cooking, seasonings, salt
Navigation - Map, compass, and possibly GPS
Lighting - Headlamp and handheld or weapon light
Clothing - Rain/cold weather gear, socks, and underwear, possibly spare shoes/boots
Cash? No checks, credit, or debit cards, obviously

Just a few thoughts. Obviously, this is not a Lewis and Clark type adventure, but a day or two without water, food, or a dry warm place will suck.

Also, I would note that you could build a summer BoB and a Winter BoB, or just swap and add items to your bag as necessary. I probably couldn't remember to do that, so I guess I would be dumping unneeded items at the first halt. Yet another reason to keep the weapons loadout light.

Originally Posted by Sdiver

Funny you brought this up T.R. I've thought about this scenario a few times already.

I have the luxury of living right next to the foothills, SW of D-town Denver, and there are several bike trails and greenbelts by my place which lead up into the hills, so I have a few routes already planned. ("Wolverines" ) I know of several caves and abandoned mines further up into the hills, so that would be a likely destination. Some are close to streams and small ponds (although I wouldn't count on the ponds being "fresh" next to the mines, but it is a water source).

Along with my bug out bag, the weapons I would grab would be:
Side arm: 1911 with 111 rounds. Two 50 round boxes, and eight mags ... 4 eight round and 4 seven round.
My M&P 15 with seven 30 round mags = 210 rounds (along with three empty mags)
The Garand with 80 rounds (ten clips) for the "far reaching" effect an M1 has.

I know this sounds crazy, but I'd also grab my Mossberg 500, along with two boxes of bird shot (one box of #7 and one box of #9), a box of slugs, and a box of 00. (twenty rounds each box).

I have a nice 5.11 "fanny pack" that I can fit the six 5.56 mags, the boxes of ammo and 1911 mags in, and still have room, which I can put in a cleaning kit for all weapons, along with some rags for quick wipe downs.

I know this sounds (looks) like a lot to hump up hill, but I always thought/planned, I could stash the fanny pack and one or two long guns, off trail, scout ahead, drop off what I've brought up, go back to the "stash, retrieve that and just "leap frog" as needed.

I like your loadout, if I had a vehicle, but you would have over fifty pounds of guns and ammo, exclusive of any of the other necessities. I would not want to be humping close to 100 pounds of gear up those hills at that altitude, especially with the cold weather burden. Leap frogging means humping twice the distance, for twice the time. You may be able to do it though, but I think it is tactically unsound. Hard to speed reload from a fanny pack, too.

Originally Posted by bubba

The trade offs of rifle v pistol:

Rifle / Carbine

Up Sides: If I get in a fight with a couple of folks, I have the advantage. If a deer etc is spotted, I am gonna eat well for a while.

Down Sides: I am an instant target to anyone who spots me. Ammo is heavy and may slow me down. I may feel like I can whip anyone and bight off more than I can chew.

Pistol

Up Sides: Small, light, and concealed. I can defend myself against an armed threat. If I am carrying a smaller caliber weapon, smaller "game" like dogs become a possibility. I am traveling light and "among the fish".

Down Sides: If I get in a fight with a couple folks, I am likely to be way out gunned. I can't take mid sized game.

Yup, my personnel conclusion for most situations is to only have a pistol, likely a 9mm Glock. My ability to move incognito is my greatest strength as a singleton. If possible, I would move to a safe location and recover a cache with a long gun or 2, but only if I was in a place where I could make friends and influence others / await pickup from a larger force that is on the way.

The only glaring excetpion would be somewhere like Somalia or Yemen where EVERYONE has an AK. Then, I'd definitely have one and 3-5 mags.

Just my thoughts.

Bubba, you are the opposite of Sdiver.

I would be concerned about the range limitations and game gathering ability of a 9mm pistol, but you have a plan, have been through SERE, and I respect your perspective.

One additional consideration would be that you could break down a short M-4 and stuff it in your pack, only needing to reinstall the upper and load it to be able to use the carbine.

Your loaded Glock 9mm with a holster is roughly two pounds. The carbine (M-4 or AK), with normal accessories of an optic, mount, sling, etc. and 3-4x30 rd. mags would add another 12-14 pounds.

Big difference, but you have limited yourself to fairly small game under 50 meters range, and very limited defenses other than stealth and avoidance.

TR

[Streck-Fu]

Yes you can hunt with an AR, but I would not want to have to rely on it to stop a deer (or a bear, for that matter).

Does this scenario require us to sustain ourselves for a longer period after arriving at the 100 mile distance?

[Team Sergeant]

Originally Posted by Streck-Fu

Does this scenario require us to sustain ourselves for a longer period after arriving at the 100 mile distance?

No, you quit & die when you reach the 100 mile mark......

Now go do pushups until I'm tired....

[Surgicalcric]

I love these threads...

[The Reaper]

Originally Posted by Streck-Fu

Does this scenario require us to sustain ourselves for a longer period after arriving at the 100 mile distance?

You never know.

Plan for the basics, then look for possible additional requirements. Be prepared.

In this case, I think your back and your environment (to some degree) will be your limiting factors.

What do you need versus want, and how much of the needs can you carry and fight with?

Good comments, all.

TR

[Go Devil]

My home is 20 feet from the major river that runs through my state all the way to the Ohio.
Kayaks will be the go to choice with plenty of dry storage and lashing points as well as tackle and rods. Movement is under cover of darkness with plenty of creeks and islands to cover day light shelter.
We routinely camp by hammock with plenty of camoflage rain flys.
Portages are known and will take place 2am-4am.

I will pull the AR and the .22, my wife will pull the M1A and the single shot 12 gauge with barrel inserts.

Large ALICE is packed with each of our clothing changes as well as stripped MRE's
3 day pack carries navigation, communication, illumination, weapon maintenance, minor medical as well as sealed battle packs for noted firearms.

Plenty of fish and game along the way.