07-24-2013, 09:09
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#2
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Guerrilla
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: USA
Posts: 471
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So General Ham believed since the first wave of attack was over, the CIA Annex would not be a possible target for a second wave of attacks? He was thinking recovery and possible hostage/rescue situation. Lord, they are in evacuation mode, while valiant men are in a hell fight defending their lives. 
I realize it is easy to second guess decisions when we have the benefit of what happened afterwards, but I find his assessment and response disappointing. For me, leaders of this nature do not instill confidence that I believe our fighting men and women deserve.
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"Sometimes the things that may or may not be true are the things a man needs to believe in the most. That people are basically good; that honor, courage, and virtue mean everything; that power and money, money and power mean nothing; that good always triumphs over evil; and I want you to remember this, that love... true love never dies. Doesn't matter if it's true or not.. a man should believe in those things, because those are the things worth believing in."~ Hub
Last edited by Stargazer; 07-24-2013 at 09:16.
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Stargazer is offline
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07-24-2013, 18:35
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#3
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Quiet Professional
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Occupied Northlandia
Posts: 1,697
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stargazer
So General Ham believed since the first wave of attack was over,..... He was thinking recovery and possible hostage/rescue situation. .
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He was thinking gorganzola when clearly it was Brie time, Baby!
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"The rifle itself has no moral stature, since it has no will of its own. Naturally, it may be used by evil men for evil purposes, but there are more good men than evil, and while the latter cannot be persuaded to the path of righteousness by propaganda, they can certainly be corrected by good men with rifles." — Jeff Cooper
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miclo18d is offline
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07-24-2013, 19:09
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#4
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Asset
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: North Carolina
Posts: 22
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This goes so much deeper than our Columbo-esque General would like us to believe.
Now where did I put my trusty tin foil hat?
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BingoBango is offline
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07-24-2013, 20:30
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#5
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Quiet Professional
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Free Pineland
Posts: 24,806
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stargazer
So General Ham believed since the first wave of attack was over, the CIA Annex would not be a possible target for a second wave of attacks? He was thinking recovery and possible hostage/rescue situation....
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Well, that was what the POTUS told him to expect....  
TR
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"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming; but who does actually strive to do the deeds; who knows great enthusiasms, the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat." - President Theodore Roosevelt, 1910
De Oppresso Liber 01/20/2025
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The Reaper is offline
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07-24-2013, 21:01
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#6
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Quiet Professional
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: OCONUS...again
Posts: 4,702
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If this administration...
Is anything like the Clinton administration; they (the CIF) probably deployed (to Croatia) with blanks.... 
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-DE OPPRESSO LIBER-
Last edited by Guy; 07-24-2013 at 21:05.
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Guy is offline
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07-25-2013, 07:22
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#7
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Quiet Professional
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: NorCal
Posts: 15,370
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The 'fog of war' and perceived clarity of hindsight - a troublesome dilemma for which a 'cure all' remains yet beyond our grasp.
Richard
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“Sometimes the Bible in the hand of one man is worse than a whisky bottle in the hand of (another)… There are just some kind of men who – who’re so busy worrying about the next world they’ve never learned to live in this one, and you can look down the street and see the results.” - To Kill A Mockingbird (Atticus Finch)
“Almost any sect, cult, or religion will legislate its creed into law if it acquires the political power to do so.” - Robert Heinlein
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Richard is offline
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07-25-2013, 10:45
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#8
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Quiet Professional
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Posts: 20,929
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Guy
Is anything like the Clinton administration; they (the CIF) probably deployed (to Croatia) with blanks.... |
In Carter's administration they would have deployed with out weapons......
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Team Sergeant is offline
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07-25-2013, 11:51
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#9
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Guerrilla
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: USA
Posts: 471
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Team Sergeant
In Carter's administration they would have deployed with out weapons......
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Speaking of Carter Administration... perhaps General Ham recalls Major General John K. Singlaub career killer after publicly disagreeing with a President's position.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Richard
The 'fog of war' and perceived clarity of hindsight - a troublesome dilemma for which a 'cure all' remains yet beyond our grasp.
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I suspect that will always be the case with engagements of war/conflict.
Honestly, I am not sure what I think will be gained by the ongoing pursuit of filling in the missing puzzle pieces. Nothing will bring back those lost or fill the empty chairs that loved ones and family members live with daily. For me personally, it's more about holding those in positions of power accountable for the actions/inaction they take. I've gone over the timeline involving the 'known' activities from time-to-time and am bewildered by inaction or lack of readiness based on events leading up to the 11th. If Americans were in a hotspot why would we not anticipate attacks and be ready to respond? I suspect that the truth is far simpler than what imaginations may envision... usually is the case. However, this administration bears some responsibility for feeding the beast with their ever illusive dance...
As a concerned civilian my views may be deemed out of place, if that is the case, please accept my apology.
__________________
"Sometimes the things that may or may not be true are the things a man needs to believe in the most. That people are basically good; that honor, courage, and virtue mean everything; that power and money, money and power mean nothing; that good always triumphs over evil; and I want you to remember this, that love... true love never dies. Doesn't matter if it's true or not.. a man should believe in those things, because those are the things worth believing in."~ Hub
Last edited by Stargazer; 07-25-2013 at 14:10.
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Stargazer is offline
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07-26-2013, 17:24
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#10
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Auxiliary
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Upstate New York
Posts: 96
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard
The 'fog of war' and perceived clarity of hindsight - a troublesome dilemma for which a 'cure all' remains yet beyond our grasp.
Richard
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All very true. But at the same time, I think an argument could be made for Voltaire's statement that "Dans ce pays-ci, il est bon de tuer de temps en temps un amiral pour encourager les autres"
Now I know Voltaire did not really believe in the statement that he put in one his character's mouth. But I happen to belong to school of thought that believes the execution of Admiral John Byng help the UK found its empire even if it was not technically just.
Bottom line: It is reasonable to demand that charges brought against a private be proved beyond all reasonable doubt. But if you continue to allow commanders off the hook for caution on the grounds that it might have seemed reasonable at the time and at the same time punish commanders for every operation that fails, don't you create a culture of timidity that harms the over all effectiveness of the military?
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