Police State?

[MR2]

Some examples of increasing concern from various spectrum.

Maher On Boston Manhunt: "This Country Is Becoming A Police State"

FBI Conducting Gun Sweeps in Oakland - probably less reliable than InfoWars.com.

Linsky Files Gun Violence Legislation

Surveillance state no answer to terror on CNN!?!

[Surgicalcric]

With the continued militarization of SWAT type elements within local and federal LE agencies, cameras at every corner in large cities, and pushes for more surveillance I would say we are headed down the police state road and picking up steam with each incident. Couple the aforementioned with the incessant pleas from the citizens, who believe erosion of rights is a just trade for [perceived]safety, and they may get a police state. By the time many realize what they asked for it will be too late.

[Richard]

Ye olde argument - too much police = police state v too little police = greater degree of lawlessness.

The Maher roundtable was a pretty good overview of the argument - except he called the MAANG HMMWVs "half-tracks" and erroneously claimed the British police aren't armed. The pics he showed also show where the FEMA grant $$ went for the local/state LEOs purchasing of the up-armored vehicles everyone was clamoring about being done for BHOs "private army."

There was a huge argument recently over the use of RPAVs by LEOs. After watching the response to the Boston bombing, who needs to spend the $$ on them when everyone anywhere near the event with a cell-phone camera will voluntarily send in their videos/pics upon request when there's an incident of this type.

IMO it bears our continued vigilance, but I don't feel as if we're stepping through a 'portal to 1984'...yet.

However, YMMV - and so it goes...

Richard

[Dusty]

Originally Posted by Richard

IMO it bears our continued vigilance, but I don't feel as if we're stepping through a 'portal to 1984'...yet.

However, YMMV - and so it goes...

Richard

Back up your perspective, say, 40 years and do a relative comparison.

We've gone past "1984" in loss of individual liberty, IMO, in many ways. I believe it's due to a collapse of standards in honor and morality, and it's being programmed into our kids.

On the flip side, the prevalence of CCW laws provide some social system stability, because CCW-holders are held to a higher standard; it's a standard everybody should assume, IMO.

[GratefulCitizen]

Originally Posted by Dusty

On the flip side, the prevalence of CCW laws provide some social system stability, because CCW-holders are held to a higher standard; it's a standard everybody should assume, IMO.

Not sure I follow your logic.

Chicago has extraordinarily high standards for someone to even possess a gun, much less carry concealed.
Arizona has very low standards CCW (you only need to be legal to possess, no permit required).

Compare gun violence.

[Paslode]

Originally Posted by Surgicalcric

With the continued militarization of SWAT type elements within local and federal LE agencies, cameras at every corner in large cities, and pushes for more surveillance I would say we are headed down the police state road and picking up steam with each incident. Couple the aforementioned with the incessant pleas from the citizens, who believe erosion of rights is a just trade for [perceived]safety, and they may get a police state. By the time many realize what they asked for it will be too late.

I agree with you, 2 years ago about the only traffic camera near by was about 7 miles to the East on the other side of the State line. Since that time, especially in the last year I cannot drive a a single block in any direction without running into one. And the local PD now even has a armored van that looks like something out of a Mad Max flix.

I call in to question as to whom is making the pleas. There are some common folks who masqueraded around for promotional purposes, but for the most part the pleas I see being made are by people like Pete King, Chuck Schummer, Bloomberg and the lobbiest who sell the hardware, and it is all about CASHING IN.

There is a small company in a adjacent city that has made a killing producing multi-capable cameras for a long list of Local, State, Fed entities and agencies.


Add to that Petraeus discussed surveillance through household appliances:

http://www.wired.com/dangerroom/2012...eus-tv-remote/

The NSA Super center in Utah:

http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/201...nsadatacenter/


Cradle to grave monitoring is well on it's way imo.

[Richard]

Originally Posted by Dusty

Back up your perspective, say, 40 years and do a relative comparison.

We've gone past "1984" in loss of individual liberty, IMO, in many ways. I believe it's due to a collapse of standards in honor and morality, and it's being programmed into our kids.

I would suggest the same of you. I was a young SF Medic serving in SEA then and remember the times well.

The economy was stagnant, there was a pending global fuel crisis, America was withdrawing from its long-time commitments to SEATO, the military was struggling mightily from a loss of public and governmental trust, virulent nationalist terrorist groups were actively engaged in seeking to change our society, there was a constitutional crisis and little faith in our governmental system as the Republican Party and its leader (RMN) were being 'pounded' by the MSM for illegal electioneering activities, and so forth.

I try to make such comparisons as an on-going part of my thought processes when evaluating the 'news' of today, and think you should maybe attempt to do the same and avoid what I perceive to be your worm's-eye views of History compounded with a penchant to romanticize the past while "catastrophizing" the future.

Reflexively, as I read throughout the blogosphere today, I often wonder if we can pinpoint a place/event in the timeline of our history where America seems to have gone from a collectively optomistic to such a pessimistic view of its future.

And so it goes...

Richard

[Dusty]

Originally Posted by Richard

Reflexively, as I read throughout the blogosphere today, I often wonder if we can pinpoint a place/event in the timeline of our history where America seems to have gone from a collectively optomistic to such a pessimistic view of its future.

And so it goes...

Richard

What you call pessimistic I call pragmatic.

[Dusty]

Originally Posted by DocIllinois

It will be on an individual and family leadership level that we re-foster optomism as a cultural behavior, though.

Concur. The sooner the better

[Old Dog New Trick]

Originally Posted by Richard

Reflexively, as I read throughout the blogosphere today, I often wonder if we can pinpoint a place/event in the timeline of our history where America seems to have gone from a collectively optomistic to such a pessimistic view of its future.

And so it goes...

Richard

That's a very interesting POV. IMHO and since my birth in 1962 (that makes me younger than some and older than others here) it probably began about that same time.

The generation that came back from WWII had a different view of the world than their children did after that. Being part of the next generation and the generation that grew up with the Vietnam war on the six o'clock news has I believe had a greater affect during the late sixties and throughout the seventies. By the time Reagan took over his policies to spend our way back influenced many young people to believe anything was possible. Unfortunately that same euphoria then has left us with the IOUs created back then and lately its been time to pay for that.

It's no longer USA Hell Yeah, it's been changed to USA Oh Sh!t! Well unless NASCAR is racing this weekend.

The family values and morality of the past has been replaced with two working parents, latchkey kids, or the forced acceptance of every special class of individual freedom crowd.

I'm not optimistic about the future, it is going to be a struggle to live and raise a child in this ever increasing world of zero tolerance/zero defect. Human's aren't wired that way...to fail or falter is one of the key learning processes and the government is reaching too far into the personal and private domain of individual freedom to provide "control" over our lives from cradle to grave.

JMHO - and I'm a glass half full kind of person.

[18C4V]

I've been to Oakland many times to serve Search Warrants for our agency and to help Oakland serve thier own warrants during what the public calls "sweeps".

Oakland is a shit city, not enough officers, too much crime, etc. The article is not clear if the warrants were initiated by Oakland, Federal, or State level so I can't comment on that until there is more information. Last "sweep" that we helped Oakland was in March and Oakland initiated 23 warrants that had to be served all at the same time. The big agencies had the difficult warrants to serve (fortifications, etc). the work up period by Oakland PD to serve 23 warrants was a lengthly period that took several months to plan.

[Old Dog New Trick]

Was going to add:

We are saturated with fear and mongering about everything from safety to financial collapse.

Turn on any continuous cable news network and you will find someone selling the coming apocalypse and what you should do to protect yourself - lock your doors and hide in the closet.

The government's plan is that the citizens are incapable or not trustworthy to protect themselves or their neighbors and therefor should be the lead agency in restoring order and peace. Evidence: the aftermath of any man-made or natural event of the last 20-years or longer. They just cannot fathom that people are better suited to pick up the pieces afterwards than waiting for the government to come in and provide everything for them.

There is a natural order to things and they don't just happen for a reason. That reason is beyond the scope of the lawmakers limiting individual rights for community policing.

[akv]

In response to Richard's question on the loss of optimism in America, Peter Thiel teaches a course CS183 at Stanford on entrepreneurship, (he isn't just an academic he founded Paypal). Lecture notes are easily found on the web, Lecture "13" was on luck vs skill in successful start ups. His view is a lot of this depends on your view of the future, do you think you control your fate ( determine vs indeterminate) and if so then do you think the future is optimistic or pessimistic. He forms a four part grid and argues where societies fall on this spectrum, contrasting the US, Europe, China, and Japan. He feels the US crossed over from optimistic determinate to optimistic indeterminate in about 1982 fwiw.

Originally Posted by Old Dog New Trick

That's a very interesting POV. IMHO and since my birth in 1962 (that makes me younger than some and older than others here) it probably began about that same time.

The generation that came back from WWII had a different view of the world than their children did after that. Being part of the next generation and the generation that grew up with the Vietnam war on the six o'clock news has I believe had a greater affect during the late sixties and throughout the seventies. By the time Reagan took over his policies to spend our way back influenced many young people to believe anything was possible. Unfortunately that same euphoria then has left us with the IOUs created back then and lately its been time to pay for that.

It's no longer USA Hell Yeah, it's been changed to USA Oh Sh!t! Well unless NASCAR is racing this weekend.

The family values and morality of the past has been replaced with two working parents, latchkey kids, or the forced acceptance of every special class of individual freedom crowd.

I'm not optimistic about the future, it is going to be a struggle to live and raise a child in this ever increasing world of zero tolerance/zero defect. Human's aren't wired that way...to fail or falter is one of the key learning processes and the government is reaching too far into the personal and private domain of individual freedom to provide "control" over our lives from cradle to grave.

JMHO - and I'm a glass half full kind of person.

I was in college when you were born, and don't subscribe to your lack of optimism. Every generation of my family has done better in life than the previous ones.

[Dusty]

Originally Posted by WCH

I was in college when you were born, and don't subscribe to your lack of optimism. Every generation of my family has done better in life than the previous ones.

Well, providing the future generations don't marry within the same sex, that tradition should continue.