Mexico Border

[NousDefionsDoc]

I am hearing a lot of talk about securing the US-Mexico border with troops. I would be interested in hearing any kind of mathematical estimate on how many troops this would take and the reason for the number - if anybody's game.

[brewmonkey]

How would Posse Comitatus affect this?

Edited for spelling

[NousDefionsDoc]

Probably, but let's leave that aside for now. I am talking about a purely tactical discussion. How many, who, etc. Is it doable logistically?

[Guy]

Has alot people waiting for the outcome.

[Airbornelawyer]

For a frame of reference, here are the deployments as of August 1914, when US forces were deployed to enforce the neutrality laws on the Mexican border. The border states except for California were part of The Southern Department, while California and the Western states were part of The Western Department. The entire Army at the time was 4 divisions (including The Cavalry Division), each of two brigades of 2-4 regiments of 3 battalions/squadrons.

The Southern Department (HQ, Ft. Sam Houston, TX) -

- The Cavalry Division (HQ San Antonio, TX)

• First Cavalry Brigade (Ft. Sam Houston, TX)
  • 3rd Cavalry Regiment (Ft. Sam Houston, TX; Brownsville, TX)
  • 14th Cavalry Regiment (Ft. Clark, TX; Ft. McIntosh, TX)
  • 15th Cavalry Regiment (Ft. Bliss, TX)
• Second Cavalry Brigade (Douglas, AZ)
  • 9th Cavalry Regiment (Douglas, AZ)
  • 10th Cavalry Regiment (Ft. Huachuca, Nogales, Naco, Yuma, Osborn, AZ)

- Second Brigade (HQ Atlanta, GA; deployed to Laredo, TX)

• 9th Infantry Regiment (Laredo, TX)
• 17th Infantry Regiment (Eagle Pass, TX)

- Eighth Brigade (HQ San Francisco, CA (Western Dept.); deployed to El Paso, TX)

• 6th Infantry Regiment (El Paso, TX)
• 12th Infantry Regiment (Nogales, AZ; Yuma, AZ; Mexican Interns Camp at Ft. Rosecrans, CA)
• 16th Infantry Regiment (El Paso, TX)

- 12th Cavalry Regiment (less 2nd Squadron) – (Harlingen, TX; Ft. Wingate, AZ)
- 13th Cavalry Regiment (less Troop I) – (El Paso, TX; Columbus, NM)
- HQ and 1st Battalion, 3rd Field Artillery Regiment (Ft. Sam Houston, TX)
- 6th Field Artillery Regiment (El Paso, Ft. Bliss, Laredo, Brownsville, Eagle Pass, TX)
- 20th Infantry Regiment (Ft Wingate, NM; El Paso, TX)
- Company I, Signal Corps (El Paso, TX)

The Western Department (HQ, San Francisco, CA) - a brigade and a regiment were detached to the Southern Department, and most other troops were spread out over the West. In Southern California were:

• Troop A, 1st Cavalry (San Ysidro, CA)
• Troop B, 1st Cavalry (San Ysidro, CA)
• Troop D, 1st Cavalry (Calexico, CA)
• Troop K, 1st Cavalry (San Ysidro, CA)
• Troop L, 1st Cavalry (Calexico, CA)
• Troop M, 1st Cavalry (Tecate, CA)

EDITED TO ADD: Los Angeles Battalion, 7th California Infantry, California NG, called up in April 1914 and deployed to Calexico.

In addition, companies from the Coast Artillery Corps were detached for Mexican border service:

• 28th Coast Artillery Company (HQ Ft. Rosecrans, CA; deployed to Tecate and San Ysidro, CA)
• 29th Coast Artillery Company (HQ Ft. Winfield Scott, CA; deployed to Tecate, CA)
• 39th Coast Artillery Company (HQ Ft. Morgan, AL; deployed to Brownsville, TX)
• 57th Coast Artillery Company (HQ Ft. Winfield Scott, CA; deployed to San Ysidro, CA)
• 61st Coast Artillery Company (HQ Ft. Baker, CA; detachment deployed to San Ysidro, CA)
• 66th Coast Artillery Company (HQ Ft. Barry, CA; deployed to Tecate, CA)
• 91st Coast Artillery Company (HQ Jackson Barracks, LA; deployed to Brownsville, TX)
• 115th Coast Artillery Company (HQ Ft. Rosecrans, CA; deployed to San Ysidro, CA)
• 128th Coast Artillery Company (HQ Ft. Crockett, TX; deployed to Brownsville, TX)
• 147th Coast Artillery Company (HQ Ft. Winfield Scott, CA; deployed to San Ysidro, CA)
• 164th Coast Artillery (HQ Jackson Barracks, LA; deployed to Brownsville, TX)

[Airbornelawyer]

To give a somewhat better picture of what level of resources this represented, in August 1914, the US Army consisted of 31 infantry regiments, 15 cavalry regiments and 6 field artillery regiments.

• Mexican border service: 6 infantry, 7 1/3 cavalry, 1 1/2 field artillery
• Vera Cruz, Mexico (and en route to Vera Cruz): 10 inf, 1 cav, 1 arty
• The Philippines: 3 inf, 2 cav, 1 arty
• Hawaii: 3 inf, 1 cav, 1 arty
• Other overseas: 3 inf (Canal Zone, China, Puerto Rico)
• Other CONUS & Alaska: 6 inf, 3 2/3 cav, 1 1/2 arty

So at the time, more than half the army's combat units were either patrolling the Mexican border, or deployed in or deploying to Mexico. And this was, for all intents and purposes, the quiet period. There were a few incursions and there was a lot of tension over the presence of US troops in Vera Cruz, but fighting was minimal.

The big mobilization began in May 1916, with the call-ups of the Texas, New Mexico and Arizona National Guards, and in July 1916, when other states' National Guards and militias were called up. Some 150,000 state troops would be deployed, but they did little more than drill and cough dust for several months. President Wilson, having launched a desultory punitive expedition earlier against Pancho Villa,* really had no intention of using the troops for more than a show of force.

* The Punitive Expedition, from March 1916 to February 1917, involved about 10,000 troops in total.

[echoes]

Originally Posted by NousDefionsDoc

I am hearing a lot of talk about securing the US-Mexico border with troops. I would be interested in hearing any kind of mathematical estimate on how many troops this would take and the reason for the number - if anybody's game.

Greetings...I am only speculating from the 2 busiest crossings I have been through, Tiajuana, and Otay-Mesa...Right now, there is a 1-4 hour wait to cross...with I counted 15 stations opened in T and Otay. I would triple it in the least.

6 hour shifts at 24 hours...thats 4 men per shift per station...thats um...225 agents, I believe that would be desireable.

Holly

[NousDefionsDoc]

Nobody here thinks we should use troops to close the borders?

[Guy]

Originally Posted by NousDefionsDoc

Nobody here thinks we should use troops to close the borders?

We are short on troops as it is, in this GWOT.

Any guest on where we can find some more?

[NousDefionsDoc]

Well, the libs seem to think the troops shouldn't be in Iraq, they should be guarding the border with Mexico. So I guess the idea would be to bring the NG and reserves home from the GWOT and put them on stake out.

[Team Sergeant]

Nope. I don't think it will work at all, we would have better luck stopping the rain.

Here in lovely Arizona we just busted a government run Dept of Motor Vehicles forgery service. Anyone could get an Arizona drivers, forged by the best in the business, the Arizona DMV. There were DMV’s around the state involved, hundreds of people.

Besides the AZ Gov wants to give them jobs here in the US and is working on an “open” border agreement with Mexico.

(Besides, just mention proof of citizenship here in AZ and you’d better prepare to face the ACLU for violating someone’s rights.)

My point, local and state government is already corrupt, we put ten’s of thousands of troops on the border they’ll just fly over, boat over or take the trains over or cross over on private land that the US military or Federal Government cannot patrol anyway. We cannot stop the flood, we’re too corrupt and their too well-established.

[Goggles Pizano]

Add to that TS the lack of enthusiasm of the lower courts to prosecute offenses (traffic, misdemeanor crime) that could lead to deportation, or at the very least get individuals on the Government radar. I have had more than one Immigration officer tell me that unless it's drug trafficking or a major felony they will NOT pursue the matter and prefer to pass it onto the magistrate courts. More often than not I'll stop Mexican/Dominican/Jamaican/etc. nationals who believe it's perfectly legal to operate motor vehicles without international drivers licences, and never insure those vehicles.

It does not surprise me that AZ has that problem. Frankly, it's everywhere and the State governments are dropping the ball. If we use the military to "seal" the borders (regardless if it is plausible) does this not play into the isolationism argument?

[Achilles]

Without cheap immigrant labor, your groceries would cost 10 times more than they do already. Why would we want to close off the borders entirely? Think service jobs that even the majority of blue collar America would never do. These people do these undesirable jobs, put their kids in school here in the US, then they go and get a better job than their parents. Whats wrong with that? They do the jobs we don't want to for a shot at the American dream. They do not threaten the jobs of all but the most uneducated here. Then whos at fault for losing their job to a harder working person?

The entire idea of closing out our borders seems more an effect of paranoia than anything else.

As far as security concerns go, our borders are so vast that if a tango really wants to get in the US, he can. No matter how many troops we put on borders, they will find a way. IMO we will mitigate the most risk by bringing the fight to them rather than trying to police boundries. Weren't the liberals against policing the borders like this in the first place?

[The Reaper]

Originally Posted by Achilles

Without cheap immigrant labor, your groceries would cost 10 times more than they do already. Why would we want to close off the borders entirely? Think service jobs that even the majority of blue collar America would never do. These people do these undesirable jobs, put their kids in school here in the US, then they go and get a better job than their parents. Whats wrong with that? They do the jobs we don't want to for a shot at the American dream. They do not threaten the jobs of all but the most uneducated here. Then whos at fault for losing their job to a harder working person?

The entire idea of closing out our borders seems more an effect of paranoia than anything else.

As far as security concerns go, our borders are so vast that if a tango really wants to get in the US, he can. No matter how many troops we put on borders, they will find a way. IMO we will mitigate the most risk by bringing the fight to them rather than trying to police boundries. Weren't the liberals against policing the borders like this in the first place?

Not "close" the border and immigration.

Control. Let in who we want, as many as we want, when we want them.

TR

[Sacamuelas]

I say keep the troops where they should be… hunting and killing jihad terrorists and the rogue states arming, supporting, and financing them.

Originally Posted by Achilles

Think service jobs that even the majority of blue collar America would never do. These people do these undesirable jobs, put their kids in school here in the US, then they go and get a better job than their parents. Whats wrong with that? They do the jobs we don't want to for a shot at the American dream. They do not threaten the jobs of all but the most uneducated here. Then whos at fault for losing their job to a harder working person?

You point out the benefits of how "cheap" they are for labor wages, but you conveniently ignore the higher costs to our nation that they demand in other aspects. After all, did wages or healthcare costs go up higher last year? Why do you think that is?

Who pays for these illegal aliens's kids public education? BTW, just k-12 education for illegal aliens is estimated to have been a 7.4 BILLION dollar cost to blue collar Americans just this year. Who do you think pays for their healthcare when they show up at ER's needing all their primary care and emergency care with no insurance or assets to cover their expenses? Who pays for their medications and long term care after being in an accident? Who pays for the person who is in a vehicle accident with an illegal with no insurance protection?

I say....make the game fair for the American Blue collar worker…
Pass tort reform provisions giving legal immunity to all public and private hospitals and all other healthcare practitioners to allow refusal of treatment to ALL illegal aliens no matter what the condition or circumstances. Then let's see them be happy coming and working for low wages when they are responsible for themselves and their family and paying their share of the real cost of living just like "blue collar" Americans. Concurrently pass law that requires immediate deportation once confirmed that a person is an illegal alien, be it in a hospital ER, public housing office or inspection, LE action, traffic accident, or whatever it is that brings the individual into the light of day concerning their status.

Let's have them completely removed from all welfare, housing, and social program access including public schools unless they can prove citizenship or legalvisa worker/student status, tax registration, and even valid Selective Service registration for those covered by the act. After all, this is required of all blue collar Americans to goto public universities.

Now, after doing that... let's see how many are willing to take these jobs and work so "cheaply" without having access to the amenities that we as a nation of citizens pays for with our taxes.