Arizona pastor arrested for holding Bible study at home

[cjwils3]

http://foxnewsinsider.com/2012/07/11...-defies-logic/

Yes, you read that right. Make of it what you want, but I have a not-too-subtle feeling that we could soon be turning the corner when it comes to freedom of religion in this country. It sounds eeringly like what has gone on for decades in the People's Republic of China and other certain other places (including in Europe). These "zoning laws" are exactly the kind of BS propaganda they use to justify their oppression of religious people...

[greenberetTFS]

Originally Posted by cjwils3

http://foxnewsinsider.com/2012/07/11...-defies-logic/

Yes, you read that right. Make of it what you want, but I have a not-too-subtle feeling that we could soon be turning the corner when it comes to freedom of religion in this country. It sounds eeringly like what has gone on for decades in the People's Republic of China and other certain other places (including in Europe). These "zoning laws" are exactly the kind of BS propaganda they use to justify their oppression of religious people...

It's is just starting.........

Big Teddy

[BryanK]

Well f*** me to tears . I guess Mary Kay reps, Avon, etc. need to be "zoned" now? I'm sure the city has absolutely nothing else to worry about other than this. So much for the separation of church and state. I realize articles/news like this shouldn't get to me, but it seems I picked a hell of a time to quit smoking

[Sigaba]

How does enforcement of municipal building codes come anywhere close to being like the PRC?

[cjwils3]

Originally Posted by Sigaba

How does enforcement of municipal building codes come anywhere close to being like the PRC?

The comparison I was attempting to draw is that the PRC constantly tries to rationalize their persecution of Christian house churches by saying they are somehow breaking municipal and/or federal laws...

[Pete]

I notice the story does not say how many was at his "Bible Study".

From the zoning guy it sounds like a lot - and pretty regular.

So if it's a lot and regular does that make his "Bible Study" a church?

They have zoning requirements in subdivisions for a reason.

All you complainers? You're cool with your next door neighbor holding Koran studies every Friday night and about 50 guys praying in his front yard - and two or three cars parked in front of your house and more on down the street?

Pete - Who don't like HOA's but does agree with zoning.

[Sigaba]

Originally Posted by cjwils3

The comparison I was attempting to draw is that the PRC constantly tries to rationalize their persecution of Christian house churches by saying they are somehow breaking municipal and/or federal laws...

What is your evidence that Mr. Salman was not in violation of the municipal code? (By her own statement, Mrs. Salman basically admits that she and her husband were in non compliance.)

What is your evidence that the PRC and "other certain other places" use municipal code violations to practice religious discrimination?

[JJ_BPK]

This has come up all over the country. People thinking they can start Churches or businesses or schools in/at their homes, without consulting building codes and zoning codes.

Salman was sentenced to 60 days in jail, three years probation and received a $12,180 fine for “the crime.”

I think Mr Salman has had more than one run in with the locals..

[cjwils3]

Originally Posted by Sigaba

What is your evidence that Mr. Salman was not in violation of the municipal code? (By her own statement, Mrs. Salman basically admits that she and her husband were in non compliance.)

What is your evidence that the PRC and "other certain other places" use municipal code violations to practice religious discrimination?

From what is stated in the article, there is certainly not enough evidence to indicate one way or other if the Salmans were in violation of the municipal code (depending on what exactly the code states). The city has obviously determined that they were, but that will likely be up for a jury to decide.

As for my initial post on the matter, I perhaps worded it a bit wrong because what I meant to insinuate was that the People's Republic of China, which has been on record ever since the Cultural Revolution as routinely arresting and imprisoning religious groups, has used laws as a cover for their obvious contempt for religion. As for Europe, Christians have been persecuted for speaking out against homosexuality and refusing to accomodate homosexuals for certain services, therefore violating "human rights" laws. Thus, any type of law can be used to justify oppression and conceal underlying discrimination. I have read of instances in China, though I cannot attest as to where I did so and therefore do not have the "evidence" on me, where zoning laws have been used in cases of discrimination.

[miclo18d]

The first amendment trumps zoning laws in my book.

My neighbors have a party at their house every other weekend and my other neighbor has his 10 grand kids in the pool yelling and screaming just about everyday. It's not against the HOA.

This guys HOA didn't complain. It was a city/munic ordinance that he was creating a fire hazard. he Owns 4.5 acres of land, shouldn't be a parking problem. With only 15-20 people meeting.

"It came down to zoning and proper permitting. Anytime you are holding a gathering of people continuously as he does, we have concerns about people being able to exit the facility properly in case there is a fire."

I'll bet it ends up in front of the SCOTUS.

[Sigaba]

Originally Posted by cjwils3

From what is stated in the article, there is certainly not enough evidence to indicate one way or other if the Salmans were in violation of the municipal code (depending on what exactly the code states). The city has obviously determined that they were, but that will likely be up for a jury to decide.

Google is not broken. <<LINK>> <<LINK2>>

[BryanK]

A better article that states about 15 people are there weekly, and they consist of family and friends (article here.). I was also peruzing other articles and found two youtube videos the Salmans' posted on the matter. The amount of personnel who participated in this raid was insane. Tax dollars funded that?

[Pete]

I watched the video at the bottom of the story.

1. It looks like a typical residential neighborhood to me. The clip of the agents coming up the driveway shows little room out at the street.

2. The room where they are holding the "Bible Study" sure looks like a church to me. Looks like that room was special built for the "Bible Study".

Yeah, it's a church.

And the zoning guys didn't pop up from nowhere. Somebody on his street complained and after looking at Sigaba's links I can see why.

A 4,200 sf building could hold a lot of folks.

He has big plans for his lot and I can see why the neighbors are not happy.

[cjwils3]

Originally Posted by Sigaba

Google is not broken. <<LINK>> <<LINK2>>

Thank you for the links. They have provided additional information that was not present in the initial article. However, I would still prefer to wait until a subsequent hearing is had on the matter before commenting further.

Salman et al v. Phoenix, City of et al - Document 36 seems to point in the direction of the Salmans having indeed committed a violation of the municipal code, but that is to be decided in a court of law.

[Sigaba]

Originally Posted by cjwils3

Thank you for the links. They have provided additional information that was not present in the initial article. However, I would still prefer to wait until a subsequent hearing is had on the matter before commenting further.

Salman et al v. Phoenix, City of et al - Document 36 seems to point in the direction of the Salmans having indeed committed a violation of the municipal code, but that is to be decided in a court of law.

Did you read the article that you yourself provided in the OP?

Salman was sentenced to 60 days in jail, three years probation and received a $12,180 fine for “the crime.”

Or, if you prefer, there's an article from the Christian Post.

Ariz. Preacher Sentenced to Jail After Building 'Private' Church in Backyard

Thu, Jun. 21, 2012 Posted: 09:52 AM EDT

Arizona preacher Michael Salman was sentenced to jail for building what the City of Phoenix claims he has been representing as a church on his home property without securing the proper permits. Salman claims the building is not a church and is simply for private Bible study gatherings.

Salman's case, which started in 2007, reached its conclusion this week when a Phoenix court ruled that he was guilty of more than five dozen violations in constructing the building and sentenced him to 60 days in jail and three years of probation.

The preacher, whose ministry is called Harvest Christian Fellowship, claims he was exercising his religious liberty by worshiping at home on his private property, and that his gatherings were no different than when people hold Super Bowl or Christmas parties.

"You're taking a man out of society and sticking him in jail for worshiping at his home," he told a local news station.

The issue with Salman's case was a building in his backyard, which the City said he constructed without abiding by legal codes and safety standards. The building, reportedly used for weekly gatherings of about 30 to 40 people, has a pulpit and chairs. The building, located on his 1.5-acre property, is about 2,000 square feet and was previously labeled a "game room" by Salman but organized on the inside for worship services.

Salman, who describes himself as a "Pastor of the Christian faith" and was ordained in 1996 by Church of God in Christ elders, has spoken out on the case in several videos published to his YouTube Channel.

In the most recent video, uploaded on June 17, Salman appears with his wife, Suzanne Salman, explaining the history of the case, claiming that the City of Phoenix has been "harassing" him since 2007.

Salman reveals in the video that he had to report to the county jail this past Sunday to begin serving his 60-day sentence.

"To the City of Phoenix, I am a criminal and I deserve to go to jail. So we are fighting, we are fighting folks not only for us, but for you," Salman says in the video.

He adds, "I'm glad that I'm not going to jail because I'm a criminal like a thief or a murderer, but that I'm a criminal because I'm a Christian. ... And I am blessed and honored to do this for Christ because my heart is right and because my wife's heart is right."

A California couple experienced a similar situation last year when the City of San Juan Capistrano fined them for holding Bible studies and religious gatherings in their home. Neighbors had complained that the meetings often attracted dozens of people, dozens of vehicles and too much noise. Chuck and Stephanie Fromm were fined $300 for what city officials said was a violation of a municipal code that makes it illegal for religious, fraternal or nonprofit" organizations in residential neighborhoods to hold such gatherings without a conditional-use permit.

Salman says his Harvest Christian Fellowship is "dedicated in preaching the Gospel in the streets, helping the needy and strengthening the saints."

In an effort to shore up support, the Salmans have launched an online petition on Change.org directed to the "Mayor and City Council" of Phoenix. So far, only 93 visitors have signed the petition, which needs 100,000 supporters.

"This is a message that religious practice and the right to assemble for such is a protected right," reads the description accompanying the petition. "Michael Salman should not be in jail for worshiping on his private property with family and friends. FREE MICHAEL SALMAN!!"