Permit to Kill Bald Eagles

[cbtengr]

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2012...l-bald-eagles/

I have some very mixed emotions about this subject, on one hand I am totally repulsed by the thought of anyone deliberately killing our national symbol. On the other hand I believe strongly in religious freedom. The article brings out some good points, ones that I were not aware of.

"William Downes, then a federal judge in Wyoming......... Downes said the federal government generally refuses to grant permits to tribal members to kill eagles even though federal regulations say such permits should be available.

"Although the government professes respect and accommodation of the religious practices of Native Americans, its own actions show callous indifference to such practices," Downes wrote."

Since this is a Native American issue and I believe that Native Americans truly respect our national symbol I guess I can supprt this decision on a very limited basis. Should the powers to be get too liberal in the issuance of permits I would rethink my position. I do find it hard to believe though "that the birds American Indians receive from a federal depository were rotten, or otherwise unfit for use in religious ceremonies."
This had better not be the case.

[Dusty]

Originally Posted by cbtengr

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2012...l-bald-eagles/

I have some very mixed emotions about this subject, on one hand I am totally repulsed by the thought of anyone deliberately killing our national symbol. On the other hand I believe strongly in religious freedom. The article brings out some good points, ones that I were not aware of.

"William Downes, then a federal judge in Wyoming......... Downes said the federal government generally refuses to grant permits to tribal members to kill eagles even though federal regulations say such permits should be available.

"Although the government professes respect and accommodation of the religious practices of Native Americans, its own actions show callous indifference to such practices," Downes wrote."

Since this is a Native American issue and I believe that Native Americans truly respect our national symbol I guess I can supprt this decision on a very limited basis. Should the powers to be get too liberal in the issuance of permits I would rethink my position. I do find it hard to believe though "that the birds American Indians receive from a federal depository were rotten, or otherwise unfit for use in religious ceremonies."
This had better not be the case.

Well, the Northern Arapaho vote is salted down.

[SLVGW360]

I don't really have an opinion on the giving of permits for taking Bald Eagles. I am not that familiar with the provisions of the Eagle Act which is still in effect for both Bald and Golden Eagles. Here is a link for additional information: http://www.fws.gov/midwest/MidwestBi...its/index.html

I do know that the US Fish and Wildlife Service can and will issue permits for protected species in specific instances.

I have personally delivered or shipped eagles and other raptors to the USF&WS repository in Denver. I can say that many are not in the greatest condition. We tend to acquire them from being hit while scavenging along roadways, electrocutions, collisions, etc. From these types of sources they might be on the ground for quite sometime before we even know about them. Unless they are way beyond salvage, we still send them. That doesn't mean that they are pristine. Some poaching does occur, but we don't get many that way. Sometimes one will pick up lead and we'll find them sick. Those we can deliver quite fresh.

FWIW

RB

[The Reaper]

Well, it was either a couple of eagles, or a couple more casino permits.

TR

[TOMAHAWK9521]

The tribes should simply wait beneath those eye-sore windmills that are cluttering up the western landscapes. Those suckers whack eagles and all other types of birds out of the sky all the time. And since the windmills are part of the green energy industry, it's all natural. So, in a way, the tribes don't even need to ask, they can let the government's program kill the birds for them.

[PSM]

Originally Posted by TOMAHAWK9521

The tribes should simply wait beneath those eye-sore windmills that are cluttering up the western landscapes. Those suckers whack eagles and all other types of birds out of the sky all the time. And since the windmills are part of the green energy industry, it's all natural. So, in a way, the tribes don't even need to ask, they can let the government's program kill the birds for them.

Yep, twenty or thirty years from now they will be rusted remnants of another failed leftist policy!

My sister's father-in-law, in Snyder, TX, was invited to a meeting with an "alternative energy" provider. They offered $13,000 a windmill to the land owners. My sister asked what would happen if they went tits up. Who would remove the windmills? They ignored her question. Her FIL declined the offer and encouraged his neighbors to do the same.

My sister was a "Land Man" for a law office in Amarillo, TX, that handled oil and gas leases in TX, NM, OK, CO, and KS. She knows things.

Pat

[Team Sergeant]

I've submitted a few requests to take "radical politicians" based on my religious beliefs and have been denied every time.


Yeah, I'm sure the indians need to kill Eagles for their religious services. Just like they need to kill whales once a year with a modern .50 cal rifle. I'm sure that's how they did it in the old days. Tradition is a wonderful thing. I'd be interested in how they take the eagles, 5 bucks say they do it with "modern weapons".

You know I find the killing of our national symbol very offensive. But I had to change the name of my little league team from the Fighting Arapaho's to the "Dead Eagles" because "they" found it offensive.

[Dusty]

Originally Posted by Team Sergeant

You know I find the killing of our national symbol very offensive. But I had to change the name of my little league team from the Fighting Arapaho's to the "Dead Eagles" because "they" found it offensive.

lololol Send me a pic of the jersey, Team Sergeant. My avatar needs updating. Still looks alive.

[Papa Zero Three]

I don't want this conversation to degrade into a Race/religion card stereo type argument but I would like to shed some light on this topic and hopefully people can walk away a little bit more enlightened and knowledgable on this subject.

This is one of those things that I don't expect many non Native people to understand or accept as it is contrary to what we as Americans identify with as our identity as a country. As much as Americans hold the Eagle in high regard as a symbol, Native Americans hold it in even higher regard as it is intrinsically tied to who we are, not only as a people/society but spiritually as well. Like any religion and or culture, if you are not familiar with it or it's practices, it may not make sense to you and may seem offensive.

What is being discussed in the article is not about your average hunting permit, where Joe goes out and shoots a deer/elk/bear/turkey, poses and takes pictures with it, has it stuffed and hangs it on the wall like most people are familiar with when they think hunting permit. This is not done for sport nor is it taken lightly by Native Americans that an Eagle is being killed, it is part of a very sacred religious practice and isn't done on a whim or by just anyone whenever they feel like it.

Every part of the Eagle is considered sacred and is treated as such. As the article mentions, typically the Eagle has to be requested from the Government and there is a list, much like an organ donor waiting list, to have one of the Eagles provided. Most of the Eagles are ones that have been discovered after they have died be it natural or otherwise and can be in very rough shape sometimes. When you consider every piece of the Eagle to be sacred and it shows up in a nondescript styrofoam box on dry ice and in some cases the Eagle is mangled or in stages of decomposition, it isn't suitable for use in what is considered a sacred event nor is it the proper way to handle a most sacred and revered animal after it has died. Lets not overlook the fact that in order to even hold this sacred religious event, Native Americans have to literally stand in line and ask the Government permission for these Eagles to do it legally.....in the Governments eyes. Does that sound right to anyone or what anyone should have to go through to practice their religion? This IS America right?


Again, I don't expect everyone to agree with and or understand this, especially given the way people in the world view most religious organizations today and or religions different than their own. However, there are people out there, Americans, Native Americans who see the Eagle as more than just our countries symbolic representation and hold it in higher regard,both as a symbol and spiritually than the average American does. Ones lack of understanding of this religious practice may lead one to believe that it is disrespectful when the fact of the matter is the exact opposite.

[DJ Urbanovsky]

If they're allowed to do it, it should only be one way: Up in the mountains, bare handed.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XafAdkZIYKA

Bet there wouldn't be too many takers. Or maybe there would. I'd respect a man with guts enough to go hand to hand with an eagle.

Originally Posted by Team Sergeant

Yeah, I'm sure the indians need to kill Eagles for their religious services. Just like they need to kill whales once a year with a modern .50 cal rifle. I'm sure that's how they did it in the old days. Tradition is a wonderful thing. I'd be interested in how they take the eagles, 5 bucks say they do it with "modern weapons".

[PedOncoDoc]

Originally Posted by Team Sergeant

Yeah, I'm sure the indians need to kill Eagles for their religious services. Just like they need to kill whales once a year with a modern .50 cal rifle. I'm sure that's how they did it in the old days. Tradition is a wonderful thing. I'd be interested in how they take the eagles, 5 bucks say they do it with "modern weapons".

This argument would seem silly if applied to the making of communion wafers using modern ovens (discussions of ritualistic symbolic cannibalism aside), the sewing of religious vestments with modern sewing machines, the mass production of religious texts with modern printing technology and the "Rock n' Roll services" using electric guitars.

IMHO, the use of modern technology in the practicing of one's faith does not cheapen it.

[afchic]

Originally Posted by Papa Zero Three

I don't want this conversation to degrade into a Race/religion card stereo type argument but I would like to shed some light on this topic and hopefully people can walk away a little bit more enlightened and knowledgable on this subject.

This is one of those things that I don't expect many non Native people to understand or accept as it is contrary to what we as Americans identify with as our identity as a country. As much as Americans hold the Eagle in high regard as a symbol, Native Americans hold it in even higher regard as it is intrinsically tied to who we are, not only as a people/society but spiritually as well. Like any religion and or culture, if you are not familiar with it or it's practices, it may not make sense to you and may seem offensive.

What is being discussed in the article is not about your average hunting permit, where Joe goes out and shoots a deer/elk/bear/turkey, poses and takes pictures with it, has it stuffed and hangs it on the wall like most people are familiar with when they think hunting permit. This is not done for sport nor is it taken lightly by Native Americans that an Eagle is being killed, it is part of a very sacred religious practice and isn't done on a whim or by just anyone whenever they feel like it.

Every part of the Eagle is considered sacred and is treated as such. As the article mentions, typically the Eagle has to be requested from the Government and there is a list, much like an organ donor waiting list, to have one of the Eagles provided. Most of the Eagles are ones that have been discovered after they have died be it natural or otherwise and can be in very rough shape sometimes. When you consider every piece of the Eagle to be sacred and it shows up in a nondescript styrofoam box on dry ice and in some cases the Eagle is mangled or in stages of decomposition, it isn't suitable for use in what is considered a sacred event nor is it the proper way to handle a most sacred and revered animal after it has died. Lets not overlook the fact that in order to even hold this sacred religious event, Native Americans have to literally stand in line and ask the Government permission for these Eagles to do it legally.....in the Governments eyes. Does that sound right to anyone or what anyone should have to go through to practice their religion? This IS America right?


Again, I don't expect everyone to agree with and or understand this, especially given the way people in the world view most religious organizations today and or religions different than their own. However, there are people out there, Americans, Native Americans who see the Eagle as more than just our countries symbolic representation and hold it in higher regard,both as a symbol and spiritually than the average American does. Ones lack of understanding of this religious practice may lead one to believe that it is disrespectful when the fact of the matter is the exact opposite.

I for one am thankful for your post. As a Catholic who is outraged by the audacity of this administration to try and insert itself into my religion, I find the same to be true of any religion that is treated this way by a government with a First Ammendment that states our ability to practice our religion freely, without intrusion by the government.

[DJ Urbanovsky]

I think those are completely different things. How can you compare killing a living creature to printing a book, baking bread, or playing music?

The Catholic church tortured and murdered thousands in the name of religion. Does that make it right? What about jihadists blowing up innocent people? I mean, they're fighting against the infidel, right? They're just practicing their religion as well. Tell me where you draw the line.

Originally Posted by PedOncoDoc

This argument would seem silly if applied to the making of communion wafers using modern ovens (discussions of ritualistic symbolic cannibalism aside), the sewing of religious vestments with modern sewing machines, the mass production of religious texts with modern printing technology and the "Rock n' Roll services" using electric guitars.

IMHO, the use of modern technology in the practicing of one's faith does not cheapen it.

[PedOncoDoc]

Originally Posted by DJ Urbanovsky

I think those are completely different things. How can you compare killing a living creature to printing a book, baking bread, or playing music?

The Catholic church tortured and murdered thousands in the name of religion. Does that make it right? What about jihadists blowing up innocent people? I mean, they're fighting against the infidel, right? They're just practicing their religion as well. Tell me where you draw the line.

TS's argument was not whether to allow the killing of a sacred animal for spiritual practices - it was whether it was okay to use modern techonologies to do so. Several religions have spiritual practices for the killing of animals - I was not debating whether or not to agree with it.

Also I eat animals that have been killed on a regular basis - whether an animal is killed for food or for spiritual beliefs shouldn't make one right and the other wrong, as long as it isn't senseless killing. Comparing the killing of an eagle to the torturing/killing of a person is not a valid argument in my eyes.

[DJ Urbanovsky]

While it's probably not clear from my post (although it is from the one that immediately precedes yours), I'm trying to say the same thing as TS. I feel that technology cheapens and disconnects one from the sacred act of taking life. If all it takes to kill a whale or an eagle is the push of a button, it becomes a video game. There is nothing spiritual about that.

And I eat animals too, but I like and respect them a lot more than I do a lot of people.

I do not agree with killing animals for religious ceremonies, any more than I agree with factory farming. That's my opinion. I don't care if it's a chicken or an eagle. And I do not agree with killing for the sake of killing. Which is what killing an animal for a religious ceremony feels like to me. If it isn't a threat to you, you kill it, you better eat it.

Originally Posted by PedOncoDoc

TS's argument was not whether to allow the killing of a sacred animal for spiritual practices - it was whether it was okay to use modern techonologies to do so. Several religions have spiritual practices for the killing of animals - I was not debating whether or not to agree with it.

Also I eat animals that have been killed on a regular basis - whether an animal is killed for food or for spiritual beliefs shouldn't make one right and the other wrong, as long as it isn't senseless killing. Comparing the killing of an eagle to the torturing/killing of a person is not a valid argument in my eyes.