26 EU States Consider Joining New Euro Zone Treaty

[JJ_BPK]

26 EU States Consider Joining New Euro Zone Treaty
Published: Friday, 9 Dec 2011 | 8:56 AM ET
By: Reuters with CNBC.com

All EU countries except one are ready to join the 17 members of the euro zone to draft a new intergovernmental treaty for deeper fiscal union aimed at tackling the sovereign debt crisis, EU Council President Herman Van Rompuy said on Friday.

continued...

http://www.cnbc.com/id/45609759

Is Germany's drive to control the EU purse(s) going to accomplish what they failed to do in two World Wars??

We have read for years that the Europe NEEDS the EU to survive, from Germany and France..

Does it??

If Greece was not in the EU and the World stopped lending them money they have no plan to repay, who cares???

The same can be asked of Spain, Italy, and all the other spoiled little fiefdoms pushing their Robin Hood Socialist agendas...

With all due respect, that was a little simplistic.

[scooter]

So was your post. Don't throw random insults, refutes something, or give a counter-opinion.

[JJ_BPK]

Originally Posted by Sierra Lima

With all due respect, that was a little simplistic.

My post is am attempt to generate a open discussion based on current events. And you are correct in stating that the post was simplistic. That is exactly what I was aiming for.

The problem(s) are very simple.

The idea that a nation like Germany can browbeat most, if not all of Europe into their vision of a banking system run by their vision of a political system, seems less than optimal, unless they have a vision.

The idea that a small country like Greece can spend wealth that it has no way of generating via it's own economic system is also ludicrous.

Thus, one can argue that the problems of Europe globally fall into the two buckets.

If you want to macro analyze the differences between Spain, Italy, and Greece, so be it. But they are still countries that can not or will not attempt to fix their financial problems.

Instead they have become dependent on the other EU parties to bail them out.

And Germany seems to be very willing to take the lead...

Why?????

[GratefulCitizen]

Most of the economic damage has already been done.
All of the nonsense going on is just a game of musical chairs to see who they can stick with the bill.

Originally Posted by scooter

So was your post. Don't throw random insults, refutes something, or give a counter-opinion.

No insult meant, nor, honestly, do I see one. Anyhow, for the sake of an open debate I'll articulate my thoughts in a more thorough fashion.

[rdret1]

JJ, I think you may be close to the bullseye. The whole idea of the EU has always been a little disconcerting to me. Each country has their own government, yet the EU has a parallel governmental structure which, at times like these, seems to trump the actual elected governments of member nations. Germany appears to be the big sister in this little family, able to lead several of the others down whatever path she chooses.

When put in the perspective that you put forth, it is ironic that GB, once again, appears as the only outsider, while Greece, Italy, Spain and France dance to the tune. Only the future will tell.

Originally Posted by JJ_BPK

My post is am attempt to generate a open discussion based on current events. And you are correct in stating that the post was simplistic. That is exactly what I was aiming for.

The problem(s) are very simple.

The idea that a nation like Germany can browbeat most, if not all of Europe into their vision of a banking system run by their vision of a political system, seems less than optimal, unless they have a vision.

The idea that a small country like Greece can spend wealth that it has no way of generating via it's own economic system is also ludicrous.

Thus, one can argue that the problems of Europe globally fall into the two buckets.

If you want to macro analyze the differences between Spain, Italy, and Greece, so be it. But they are still countries that can not or will not attempt to fix their financial problems.

Instead they have become dependent on the other EU parties to bail them out.

And Germany seems to be very willing to take the lead...

Why?????

For starters, please believe me when I say that I meant no insult when I replied to your first post. I mean it.
Switching focus, Germany has proven as one of the lead economies in Europe. characterized by financial and political rigour. Their vision, in my opinion, is to bring the rest of Europe to exercise the same political and financial rigour or to drop the EU, plain and simple.
To be honest with you, a more german approach to politics and finance would be more than welcome, as some of EU's endemic problems are red tape, inefficiency and waste of financial resources. As per Italy, I'd be lying if I said that we're one of the most virtuous european countries. 20 years of berlusconism have left us with devastating effects. He only pursued his courthouse free agenda, leaving the rest behind. But at the same time, Italy's on the giving end of the cash flow as far as EU goes. Yes, we've received money from the EU, but all within the framework or regular european project financing schemes. Our main problems are fundamentally three: corruption, waste of financial resources ( which is directly related to corruption) and tax evasion but especially with the latest budget law we've definitely acknowledged the situation and started dealing with it. But I don't want to focus on Italy alone. We can discuss it further at a later or separate stage.
So, I said that I agree with your vision of Germany's conduct. And I do not see a problem with it as long as we get only the best of their approach.
The main flaw of the EU, as I said in another thread, is its imposition from above. It is basically a political Frankenstein, the result of a partial integration that is only technical. European states decided to relinquish part of their sovereignty in return to pretty much nothing. Because if on one end we have the EU with all of its treaties, politicians and red tape, on the other hand we lack the instruments for a true governance. And the common history and development. Each member has its own agenda and the current structure of european institutions made up of nothing more than consulting bodies with little to no power has done the rest.
I believe you nailed two issues, but I disagree with saying that it all comes down to germany's strive for leading and greece's indolence. There's more to it.
Looking forward to hearing more opinions.

[JJ_BPK]

Originally Posted by Sierra Lima

For starters, please believe me when I say that I meant no insult when I replied to your first post. I mean it.

No problem..

Originally Posted by Sierra Lima

The main flaw of the EU, as I said in another thread, is its imposition from above.

It is basically a political Frankenstein, the result of a partial integration that is only technical.

European states decided to relinquish part of their sovereignty in return to pretty much nothing.

Because if on one end we have the EU with all of its treaties, politicians and red tape, on the other hand we lack the instruments for a true governance. And the common history and development.

Each member has its own agenda and the current structure of european institutions made up of nothing more than consulting bodies with little to no power has done the rest.

I believe you nailed two issues, but I disagree with saying that it all comes down to germany's strive for leading and greece's indolence. There's more to it.

Looking forward to hearing more opinions.

Almost sounds like the USA, Federal -vs- States rights??? At least we started with 13 colonies that had a common heritage and language,, and 200 years later...

But we're not talking about the US,,

What does Frau Merkel and the rest of the Europe think they will gain by the EU. They have purposely made it weak in the political arena yet they are trying to UN-weaken it with draconian monetary policy???

My concerns revolve around the current state of my investments. As a retiree, I may or may not have 20 yrs to sort this mess out.. The boat rocking going on only exacerbates my dementia...

[Dozer523]

Originally Posted by Sierra Lima

No insult meant, nor, honestly, do I see one. Anyhow, for the sake of an open debate I'll articulate my thoughts in a more thorough fashion.

In theory there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice there is.
Yogi Berra

Roger that Sir, I'll keep it in mind for future interactions on this board. Like I said, I meant no insult, nevertheless it may have still seeped through my reply.

Originally Posted by JJ_BPK

No problem..

I'm glad that we could settle this minor glitch in a gentleman's fashion, Sir. A different sequence of events would have been the most inconvenient as I can't find my cape and challenge glove.

Originally Posted by JJ_BPK

Almost sounds like the USA, Federal -vs- States rights??? At least we started with 13 colonies that had a common heritage and language,, and 200 years later...

Exactly, almost like. We lack the historical and developmental groundwork that on the contrary you guys have.

Originally Posted by JJ_BPK

But we're not talking about the US,,

I believe you're right.

Originally Posted by JJ_BPK

What does Frau Merkel and the rest of the Europe think they will gain by the EU. They have purposely made it weak in the political arena yet they are trying to UN-weaken it with draconian monetary policy???

EU's founding fathers were originally just trying to balance the international predominance exercised by the US when the cold war ended. The partial evolution that the EU has undergone and financial speculation have led to the current state of being that Frau merkel und the others are currently dealing with. . Financial measures might seem draconian but situations like Italy's demanded for blunt short term corrective measures in order to buy time to amend the amendable and set a different and sustainable course. One example? 13 cents tax raise in diesel fuel price and 10 in gasoline. I currently pay 1,70 euro for a LITRE of diesel fuel. It makes a little over 5 bucks per gallon. Thus, it makes me wanna kill myself.

Originally Posted by JJ_BPK

My concerns revolve around the current state of my investments. As a retiree, I may or may not have 20 yrs to sort this mess out.. The boat rocking going on only exacerbates my dementia...

Well, the fact that European central bank and the IMF have stepped into the financial turmoil makes me see a little glimpse of hope. The rest will have to come out of hard work, reformations and tax payer's/collector's fairness and persistence.

[DevilSide]

Originally Posted by JJ_BPK

Is Germany's drive to control the EU purse(s) going to accomplish what they failed to do in two World Wars??

We have read for years that the Europe NEEDS the EU to survive, from Germany and France..

Does it??

With what little I know about this at the moment, I think Europe does need the EU. EU provides economic stability, or that's the idea anyway. Germany and France being the most powerful in Europe they're a pillar in the region taking a natural leader role. Look at the history, pre-ww1 Germany had a strong economy, highly industrialized, post ww2 it's naturally returned, to what it is today. Some of the other nations in the EU just can't do that for many reasons, but I feel if they follow the lead they might bring something to the table for the EU. At the moment, any benefits that are not there, is because of the extra spending from Greece and Italy. EU or no EU, Europe is still like it's own little global economy, everyone must keep the other on their feet or things go down.

[JJ_BPK]

Originally Posted by DevilSide

With what little I know about this at the moment, I think Europe does need the EU. EU provides economic stability, or that's the idea anyway. Germany and France being the most powerful in Europe they're a pillar in the region taking a natural leader role(#1). Look at the history, pre-ww1 Germany had a strong economy, highly industrialized, post ww2 it's naturally returned, to what it is today. Some of the other nations in the EU just can't do that for many reasons, but I feel if they follow the lead they might bring something to the table for the EU.(2) At the moment, any benefits that are not there, is because of the extra spending from Greece and Italy. EU or no EU, Europe is still like it's own little global economy, everyone must keep the other on their feet or things go down.

1. Germany does have a strong economy, but there is NO gain from taxing successful German Industry to support someone else.. Germans do not want a tax and spend system,, to support non-Germans

2. Greece has not followed the lead for 2000 years, which is their prerogative.. But they are happy to have someone else contribute to their failure..

I still see no reason for Frau Merkel's quest to spend Germany's wealth on someone else??? Nor do I see her constituent claimering for taxes on their hard earned money..

[DevilSide]

Originally Posted by JJ_BPK

1. Germany does have a strong economy, but there is NO gain from taxing successful German Industry to support someone else.. Germans do not want a tax and spend system,, to support non-Germans

2. Greece has not followed the lead for 2000 years, which is their prerogative.. But they are happy to have someone else contribute to their failure..

I still see no reason for Frau Merkel's quest to spend Germany's wealth on someone else??? Nor do I see her constituent claimering for taxes on their hard earned money..

I agree Greece isn't following the lead, but if they started to, wouldn't things be balanced out then? And while I agree they shouldn't have to pay for someone else's mistakes, they still need to either get Greece straight or cut the dead weight from the EU. I think Spain and Italy still have a chance, and should accept any help Germany and France offer, and let it not be a waste to them. While Greece isn't a major trade partner, Spain and Italy are. Say those two go further down the hole they're significant enough that its going to have a ripple effect on the Eu as a whole, which will affect the rest of the world, particularly the US and Canada shortly after. If they work out these rough parts the EU might just be the best thing for Europe.