11-10-2011, 03:37
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#1
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BANNED USER
Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 17
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Remington ACR or DSA SA58?
Gentlemen,
Since I'm new to this website let me introduce myself briefly before I start my first thread.
I am a student located in The Netherlands. I'm working on a bachelors degree in history, which I need in order to do a masters in military science. I did part of my training at the Royal Netherlands Military Academy and will attend the Netherlands Defense University during masters. I have no service experience.
I'd like to hear the opinion of the 'men on the ground' regarding two weapon systems.
Would you either prefer the Remington ACR in 6.8SPC or the DSA SA58 in 7.62? From what I understood, 6.8SPC was developed by SOCOM, with Remington providing the hardware infrastructure. You probably all know of the reports and claims made on the internet about 6.8 being superior to both 5.56 and 7.62 in the carbine/rifle role (flatter trajectory, better terminal ballistics etc). First of all, is this actually true, does any of you have any experience with 6.8? And secondly, would any of you still prefer 7.62 in most situations considering lessons learned in Iraq and A'stan? What is the better weapon system and caliber in your book?
DSA FAL-SA58 links
www.dsarms.com/products.asp?dept=8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CmJhF...eature=related
Remington ACR links
http://www.remingtonmilitary.com/Rem...bines/ACR.aspx
www.youtube.com/watch?v=eoa-rJkHReM
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Arma Viri is offline
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11-10-2011, 06:33
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#2
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Guerrilla
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Ft. Drum
Posts: 180
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You forgot to post an introduction  Its the first thing you do before you post, go back to your email and re-read.
__________________
The general who advances without coveting fame and retreats without fearing disgrace, whose only thought is to protect his country and do good service for his sovereign, is the jewel of the kingdom - Sun Tzu
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DevilSide is offline
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11-10-2011, 10:28
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#3
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BANNED USER
Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DevilSide
You forgot to post an introduction Its the first thing you do before you post, go back to your email and re-read. |
Mea culpa. I read http://professionalsoldiers.com/foru...ad.php?t=11578 but put to much emphasis on the 'Everyone does not need their own personal thread for introductions.' I'll post my introduction in the proper section.
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Arma Viri is offline
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11-10-2011, 11:02
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#4
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Asset
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Langley AFB
Posts: 41
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I was under the impression that DSA was an import company for civilian sales in the States, like Century Arms.
As a munitions guy, I don’t see the American Military adopting a different cartridge anytime soon. I could be wrong.
As a recreational shooter, I prefer the ballistics of my 7.62 to my father’s 6.8. But then again, paper doesn’t move or fire back.
__________________
Sgt. V
“In England, if you commit a crime, the police don't have a gun and you don't have a gun. If you commit a crime, the police will say "Stop, or I'll say stop again."” - Robin Williams
“As long as there are guns, the individual that wants a gun for a crime is going to have one and going to get it.” - Ronald Reagan
"Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin
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DbeforeD is offline
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11-10-2011, 12:42
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#5
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Quiet Professional
Join Date: May 2009
Location: AZ
Posts: 618
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Whats the best?
LOL 
MVP
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MVP is offline
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11-10-2011, 12:44
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#6
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BANNED USER
Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DbeforeD
I was under the impression that DSA was an import company for civilian sales in the States, like Century Arms.
As a munitions guy, I don’t see the American Military adopting a different cartridge anytime soon. I could be wrong.
As a recreational shooter, I prefer the ballistics of my 7.62 to my father’s 6.8. But then again, paper doesn’t move or fire back.
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From what I understand 7.62mmx51 is kind of sacred in the US, ey? Someone on the M4carbine forum claims that 6.8 has 80% of 7.62s' capabilities, but I'm sceptic about what I read on the internet because that is information that has been fed down to 'second hand' if you get my drift. I'd like to see some objective test reports based on an official military trial of 6.8 cartridges form various suppliers (Hornady, Remington etc) and a variety of 7.62 cartridges from Federal, Black Hills etc. Let the professionals from SOCOM conduct the comparison trial and make their findings public. But I'm pretty much sure they love the SPC, for they developed it themselves! It was designed from the bottom up to specifically answer their requirements. 7.62, although a very powerful round, is heavy. What you need is a good balance between mobility and firepower. But then again, that isn't a solid argument when taking the 240 gunners into account. It would make more sense to stick with one single round: 7.62, in order to have a simplified logistics chain all the way up to corps/command level. 7.62 is far from obsolete! It is here and here to stay. But if one took a close look at the SA58 and the ACR, the winner on the ergonmics side is the ACR. I really like that ambidextrous charging handle placed where it should be, as well as the different stocks and modularity Magpul/Bushmaster offer. I somehow have this feeling that the ACR just has and does it all. Remington is currently updating the ACR and has it down to around 6.4 ibs already. (I know that for sure from an inside contact and I can prove it). As far as I'm concerned 5.56 is a no-go in urban and open area like A'stan (lessons learned...) so that makes 6.8 / 7.62 a no-brainer. The only question is: what is the ideal platform?
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Arma Viri is offline
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11-10-2011, 14:41
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#7
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JAWBREAKER
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Gulf coast
Posts: 1,906
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Arma Viri.... do a couple of searches on this site for 6.8, etc. Your question has been answered/discussed multiple times in different threads. Read them.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arma Viri
Gentlemen,
I am a student located in The Netherlands. I have no service experience.
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yet you then post things like:
Quote:
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As far as I'm concerned 5.56 is a no-go in urban and open area like A'stan (lessons learned...) so that makes 6.8 / 7.62 a no-brainer.
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for example: The opinion above this usually brings unwanted attention on this site. You already stated you have no experience, yet you post this statement as if a fact. Just trying to help... Read more/post less.
Last edited by Sacamuelas; 11-10-2011 at 14:50.
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Sacamuelas is offline
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11-10-2011, 15:50
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#8
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BANNED USER
Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sacamuelas
Arma Viri.... do a couple of searches on this site for 6.8, etc. Your question has been answered/discussed multiple times in different threads. Read them.
I'll do that! Tnx!
yet you then post things like:
for example: The opinion above this usually brings unwanted attention on this site. You already stated you have no experience, yet you post this statement as if a fact. Just trying to help... Read more/post less.
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It's okay and I respect your comment. Though I have had no time downrange, I did attend Military Academy, have friends in the military and do know something about weaponry. It's my job to know these things!  (please feel invited to read my introduction and/or profile) So I don't think I can be concidered a complete outsider that is not aka barely entitled to have an opinion. I don't mean to be cocky -don't get me wrong!- but the scholar can be just as knowledgeable as the man on the ground. So maybe you could in fact give me your 2 cents?...
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Arma Viri is offline
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11-10-2011, 16:00
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#9
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Guerrilla Chief
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: NYC Area
Posts: 828
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Arma Viri
but the scholar can be just as knowledgeable as the man on the ground. So maybe you could in fact give me your 2 cents?...
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With all do respect, there is a fine line between book-smart and field-smart. What the book says doesn't always work out in the field, and while lessons learned AARs may offer some insight, many on this site, especially those with the 'Quiet Professional' tag, have more years of book and field smarts than you and I have been alive. That said, we are both guests here and in my short time on this forum, statements such as those pointed out by the good doctor, should be backed up by respectable sources, that is if you want to avoid drawing unnecessary fire.
Back to my lane...
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"Crime is an extension of business through illegal means, politics is an extension of crime through *legal* means."
Last edited by BOfH; 11-10-2011 at 18:57.
Reason: s/that/than
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BOfH is offline
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11-10-2011, 16:32
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#10
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BANNED USER
Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 17
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[QUOTE=BOfH;423910]With all do respect, there is a fine line between book-smart and field-smart. What the book says doesn't always work out in the field, and while lessons learned AARs may offer some insight, many on this site, especially those with the 'Quiet Professional' tag, have more years of book and field smarts that you and I have been alive.
I absolutely agree on that! Though I am in very close contact with military folks and do get information and other ins and outs from downrange, so I don't think it's quite fair to underestimate or dissavow that simply because I've never worn a uniform myself (come on...). I'm just asking straight questions in a 'What do you think of X? and what would you suggest on Y?'-context. That's pretty much all. I mean no harm or disrespect. The reason I'd like to get insights/opinions from the Green Berets is because they have WAY more experience, knowhow as well as more training and R&D budget/facilities than the Dutch Army has. I'm perfectly aware of the way military people think and feel. It's a very tight community that wants to keep certain things 'in the family' not for others to be seen or experienced. If you know what I mean....
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Arma Viri is offline
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11-10-2011, 17:26
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#11
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JAWBREAKER
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Gulf coast
Posts: 1,906
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OK. I tried to guide you since you are young and a student. This is not school, and most here are not online to answer questions and debate opinions with a new member who has no first hand experiences with the topics being discussed. BELIEVE ME, you are not the first or even in the first 200 guests to have the attitude and background you claim... most that don't stop and get a good grasp of the culture don't last long. I stay in my lane on this site, and I am a moderator. It is expected of everyone.
But then again, you are probably right. What do I know?....
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Sacamuelas is offline
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11-10-2011, 19:14
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#12
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Quiet Professional
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Free Pineland
Posts: 24,813
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AV:
Stop posting. You are attracting unwanted attention to yourself.
Do your homework here. Search and read before starting new threads asking inane questions.
No one should be limited by caliber or weapon, so I think your premise is flawed.
Not too many people here care what they say on other forums or what your friends think. You know how opinions are. Unless they have humped those weapons or shot a lot of people with them. Have they?
Did you just come to PS.com to ask gun questions?
Finally, can you legally own either a ACR or a FAL in the Netherlands?
TR
__________________
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming; but who does actually strive to do the deeds; who knows great enthusiasms, the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat." - President Theodore Roosevelt, 1910
De Oppresso Liber 01/20/2025
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The Reaper is offline
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11-11-2011, 01:16
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#13
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Guerrilla
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Wisconsin BCM territory
Posts: 152
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Reaper must have been reading my mind. Who gives a shit which is better in some theoretical world if you can't even own the damn things.
Knowing people at some military academy really means dick around here.
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Iraqgunz is offline
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11-11-2011, 10:56
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#14
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Quiet Professional
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Boise area, ID
Posts: 318
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Don't get too wrapped up in the whole "6.8 was designed by SOCOM for their needs" story. The real story is far less sexy, regardless if you like the round or not.
Next, you are comparing two different classes of rifles, a 7.62 bodied rifle against a 5.56. That in itself is not the best way to look at it.
Finally, the thing about QP's on this site and in general is that it there is a great deal of "inside access" that they have in just about everything it seems, the ACR being just one area.
Justin
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Justinmd is offline
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11-11-2011, 11:20
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#15
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Quiet Professional
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Occupied Pineland
Posts: 4,701
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Justinmd
Don't get too wrapped up in the whole "6.8 was designed by SOCOM for their needs" story. The real story is far less sexy, regardless if you like the round or not.
Next, you are comparing two different classes of rifles, a 7.62 bodied rifle against a 5.56. That in itself is not the best way to look at it.
Finally, the thing about QP's on this site and in general is that it there is a great deal of "inside access" that they have in just about everything it seems, the ACR being just one area.
Justin
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MOO - the real story probably should have been recorded in 15-6 proceedings. Though I do have to give kudos to manufacturers willing to take a risk to "give the Soldiers" what they think they want. Interesting times.
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A nation can survive its fools, and even the ambitious. But it cannot survive treason from within. An enemy at the gates is less formidable, for he is known and carries his banner openly. But the traitor moves amongst those within the gate freely, his sly whispers rustling through all the alleys, heard in the very halls of government itself. For the traitor appears not a traitor; he speaks in accents familiar to his victims, and he wears their face and their arguments, he appeals to the baseness that lies deep in the hearts of all men. He rots the soul of a nation, he works secretly and unknown in the night to undermine the pillars of the city, he infects the body politic so that it can no longer resist. A murderer is less to fear.
~ Marcus Tullius Cicero (42B.C)
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