General: Army has a discipline problem

[BMT (RIP)]

http://www.breitbart.com/article.php...show_article=1


BMT

[1stindoor]

Interesting article...wonder if he feels the same way about sub-par company grade officers? I've been saying it for years...we're a Profession of Arms, not a retirement club.

[ChuckG]

His logic makes sense, however, I hope that they don't start another witch hunt like they did in the early 90's. When I had D-3-1 SWTG (Language School) in 90 to 92, big Army was going after soldiers that had incidents from 5 to 10 years prior and giving or attempting to give them the boot. In the mean time they had spent all of this time and money getting them trained. If there offenses were small enough to select them for training, why boot them when the only thing they had remaining then was to learn a language? Some were now excellent soldiers and my First Sergeant and I fought to keep them in. Others just quit trying after getting the notification and we helped expedite them leaving the service. I started seeing these cycles of downsizing in 72 when I was at OCS. I didn't like it then and still don't. I also remember that starting January 1st 1983, the Army policy was that if you were an officer or an NCO and got a DWI, they would kick you out of the Army. And that New Years eve I had my last drink of alcohol in Huntsville, AL enroute to Fort Bragg. Probably just as well as I was a 2 beer drunk. I hope with this drawdown the can finally use some common sense.

[Team Sergeant]

Too bad a DUI, a sexual affair, etc does not get a politician booted from his/her profession......

Let's just hold soldiers to a much higher standard.

I have a better idea, let's end the hypocrisy.......

[PRB]

Originally Posted by Team Sergeant

Too bad a DUI, a sexual affair, etc does not get a politician booted from his/her profession......

Let's just hold soldiers to a much higher standard.

I have a better idea, let's end the hypocrisy.......

I agree totally, 'back in the day' if you didn't have a few art 15's you weren't sojerin hard....one DUI should not be a carreer ender etc...patterns yes, one aw shit...no.

[glebo]

Originally Posted by PRB

I agree totally, 'back in the day' if you didn't have a few art 15's you weren't sojerin hard....one DUI should not be a carreer ender etc...patterns yes, one aw shit...no.

Yeah, Just ask 'ol GEN Guest, Freddy Sample, and a slew of others, seems for awhile, DUI's were a prerequisite...

[Jefe]

My idea of discipline is people marching until their feet bleed who don't quit and never violate "field rules" like noise light and litter discipline. In garrison, sharp uniform, lock to attention in formation etc., (OK not a QP was Airborne Infantry).

When we came in from teh field, usally a Bataan style roadmarch where if junior enlisted walked until they passed out, they would be spared an AR15 but get remedial PT and an NCO would lose a stripe, we always had trashcans of cold beer waiting.

There were strippers in the clubs on post, 3 beer lunches and it was a much more battle focused, apolitical force. As a previous poster said, it the '90s they started to breed the Career soldier rather than the professional soldier at least in the regular army. Don't swear, drink or for gods sake rock the boat and be very careful about making a decision.

My first lesson as a PFC in leadership when the NCOs killed off the squad leadership and put me in charge of a lane so to speak, during the AAR was "make a decision" its almost always better than not making one.

And breaking rules to accomplish the mission if they got in the way (as long as they were clearly inappropriate) was a sign of initiative and mission first attitude. Today I see NCOs who are so emasculated they cant' drop soldiers for push ups or raise their voice to them.

END RANT

[Dusty]

The solution is to nip the problem in the bud by eliminating the Officer corps.

[Utah Bob]

Lt. Gen. Mark Hertling told a group of reporters over breakfast that only a small percentage of soldiers lack proper discipline

And that's different from any army at any time in history how??

[Paragrouper]

Originally Posted by Dusty

The solution is to nip the problem in the bud by eliminating the Officer corps.

[Defend]

I have to agree with the General (for reasons other than rank!).

The hardest part of basic training was the lack of discipline - soldiers got away with everything but murder. One $#!@bag that graduated applauded the announcement of the death of 7 service members in Afghanistan the day before graduation. He did so in front of the entire company, and the duty drill sergeant. The DS asked why, and he said because it was his job security. To my disgust, he graduated the next day along with everybody else.

There were soldiers who slept through every fireguard shift after the first week, caught with contraband, etc etc, and had no consequences. This general lack of discipline IMHO is what leads to greater problems down the road.

-out

[rdret1]

Originally Posted by Defend

I have to agree with the General (for reasons other than rank!).

The hardest part of basic training was the lack of discipline - soldiers got away with everything but murder. One $#!@bag that graduated applauded the announcement of the death of 7 service members in Afghanistan the day before graduation. He did so in front of the entire company, and the duty drill sergeant. The DS asked why, and he said because it was his job security. To my disgust, he graduated the next day along with everybody else.

There were soldiers who slept through every fireguard shift after the first week, caught with contraband, etc etc, and had no consequences. This general lack of discipline IMHO is what leads to greater problems down the road.

-out

What happened to good old blanket parties?

[Defend]

Originally Posted by rdret1

What happened to good old blanket parties?

That was seriously discussed. Should have happened. Too many snitches though - although I wish I had gone for it anyway.

-out

[Jefe]

We really do have to go back to basics. No Co Ed BT, you will get yelled at etc.

A proud mother was talking about her son in basic at Leonard Wood who had a condo style room with maid service. I put on my poker face as I was choking inside and said "you must be proud."

Right before I retired, I was counseled for jacking up a PV2 who enlisted with a Vicodin addiction and could not pass the PT test at the age of 19. He failed the test, (Natl Guard and they kept him on orders with all this crap) and was walking up and down the hallway of an Infantry Unit crying like a baby.

I lit his ass on fire, ordered him to stop acting like a pussy and knock of the pleas for attention. So, I get in trouble as an NCO.

However, that type of climate is Command driven. The difference between Professional Soldier and Career soldier.

But, just because somebody got hammered off duty and performs on duty to me is not real discipline, its political correctness which is a crime.

[RndTblKnght]

Originally Posted by ChuckG

His logic makes sense, however, I hope that they don't start another witch hunt like they did in the early 90's. When I had D-3-1 SWTG (Language School) in 90 to 92, big Army was going after soldiers that had incidents from 5 to 10 years prior and giving or attempting to give them the boot. In the mean time they had spent all of this time and money getting them trained. If there offenses were small enough to select them for training, why boot them when the only thing they had remaining then was to learn a language? Some were now excellent soldiers and my First Sergeant and I fought to keep them in. Others just quit trying after getting the notification and we helped expedite them leaving the service. I started seeing these cycles of downsizing in 72 when I was at OCS. I didn't like it then and still don't. I also remember that starting January 1st 1983, the Army policy was that if you were an officer or an NCO and got a DWI, they would kick you out of the Army. And that New Years eve I had my last drink of alcohol in Huntsville, AL enroute to Fort Bragg. Probably just as well as I was a 2 beer drunk. I hope with this drawdown the can finally use some common sense.

We just got a TRADOC Tasking just two days ago with a suspense of today for any E7's and above to admit to any "criminal convictions" that we have had since 2008. Here go the first round of drawdowns!! See TRADOC TASKORD below.

SUBJECT: TRADOC TASKORD EX1271- 218: Army Directive 2011-17 - Self Reporting by Officers and Senior Enlisted Members of Criminal Convictions
1. Situation. Secretary of the Army Directive, memorandum dated 21 Sep 2011, requires all commissioned officers, warrant officers and enlisted (E7 and above) Soldiers (members) to report all criminal convictions announced after Mar 1, 2008 and before 21 Sep 2011, to their unit commander NLT 6 Oct 2011. This is a local suspense; at this time there is no requirement to report status or suspense data to HQ TRADOC.
2. Mission. Reporting Past Convictions: For convictions announced after March 1, 2008 and before 21 Sep 2011, for all United States Army commissioned officers, warrant officers and enlisted members (E7 and above) on active duty or in an active duty status in the Reserve component shall report in writing via DA Form 4187 or memorandum, any conviction for violation of a criminal law of the United States. Status of the members at the time of the conviction, active duty or not, during the effective time periods is irrelevant. Soldiers will report these convictions to their unit commander NLT 6 Oct 2011.
2.A. Requirement to report future convictions: For convictions announced after 21 Sep 2011, the report shall be made to the Soldiers commander within 15 days of the date the conviction is announced, even if sentence has not be imposed or the Soldier intends to appeal the conviction.
2.B. Upon receipt of a report of civil conviction by a Soldier, the receiving commander will document receipt of the submission in the manner detailed in the attached memorandum. The commander will then forward the report through the Summary Court Martial Convening Authority (SCMCA) to the Special Court-Martial Convening Authority (SPCMCA). When the SPCMCA is not within the Soldier’s TRADOC chain-of-command, the receiving commander will provided a courtesy copy of the report through the Soldier’s TRADOC Battalion Commander to the Soldier’s TRADOC Brigade Commander.
2.C. See attached memorandum dated 21 September 2011 for definitions and examples.
UNCLASSIFIED
ATJA
SUBJECT: TRADOC TASKORD EX1271- 218: Army Directive 2011-17 - Self
Reporting by Officers and Senior Enlisted Members of Criminal Convictions
UNCLASSIFIED
3. Execution.
3.A. Suspense: Local Suspense of 06 OCT 2011.
3.B. Concept of Operations. Soldiers will report data to their commanders. Commander will comply with attached memorandum.
3.C. Tasks. TRADOC Unit commanders will ensure that all assigned members comply with this requirement.
3.C.1. Acknowledge. N/A
3.D. Coordinating Instructions. N/A
4. Admin and Log. Enclosures:
4.A. Memorandum from Secretary of the Army, 21 September 2011 – signed by the Honorable John M. McHugh Secretary of the Army.
4.B. Sample DA Form 4187.
5. Command and Signal.
5.A. Lead. Unit Commanders have the lead for their respective units.
5.B. Assist. The local administrative specialist and Office of the Staff Judge Advocate are available to assist commanders in fulfilling this requirement.
5.C. Originator. POC for HQ TRADOC is Office of Staff Judge Advocate (ATJA) ATTN:
//s//
Chief, Tasking Division
HQ TRADOC G-33
Encls
DISTRIBUTION:
All TRADOC Agencies for dissemination to Unit Commander and SJA Office