Is there a .223 round suitable for suburban home defense?

[perdurabo]

This had to have been discussed before, but I couldn't find anything with search. This is a question for those with real world experience (QPs/Soldiers/door-kicking LEOs). No boxoftruth links please

Is there suitable .223 ammunition for suburban home defense?

We have a couple handguns and a 12 ga hanging around for the usual home defense tasks, but I also have an AR and while I was packing mags full of WWB, I figured I might as well pack a couple mags that could be usable during a home invasion or similar non-SHTF scenario.

Does .223 ammo for this scenario exist? One that won't gravely endanger, I understand there's never a guarantee, my kids or neighbors? The Internet makes mention of Hornady TAP ammo in HD situations, but I don't know the qualifications of these people and I'm frankly pretty new to the .223 round.

Advice, thoughts, & corrective actions appreciated.

[The Reaper]

M193 or its clones should do just fine.

It will penetrate less than a 9mm, in my experience.

TR

[koz]

The Barnes bullets are great for HD - Black Hills makes a 50-gr Barnes TSX round. The 50gr TSX penetrates less than the 55gr TSX

LINK

[mbwatson]

I've been on the SWAT team here in Abilene, TX since '93 when we were using MP-5's. When I become the assault team leader about '03 we followed the trend to M-4's based partly on the horrendous over-penetration of the 9mm round. We conducted our own ballistic trials and chose the Winchester .223 ballistic silvertip in 55 gr. The round functions flawlessly and the plastic polycarbonite projectile fragments excellently in both ballistic gel and bodies. We experienced zero overpenetration situations. The round remains effective for exterior short to medium range engagements. We just ensure that each operator has at least 2 - 3 mags of green tip in the event of a subject who has barricaded positions, which greatly reduce the effectiveness of the ballistic tips. Here is a link to the specific ammunition:

winchester.com/products/rifle-ammunition/supreme/ballistic-silvertip/Pages/default.aspx

I hope this info helps. And as you already know, the best way to avoid overpenetration and colateral damage are well placed "center mass" hits! Best of luck to you.

Just to add, not trying to belittle your knowledge but essentially the "ballistic tip" is Winchester's "tap round" so I am sure Hornady's tap round would be equally effective. I have a buch of those personally myself but have not duplicated the same exhaustive tests that were conducted with the ballistic tips.

[perdurabo]

Thank you, thank you gentlemen -- very helpful info from all of you!

How is drywall penetration between 9mm ball vs. 9mm JHP vs .45ACP JHP?

I've been using Speer Gold Dots in my handguns (.45ACP & .380ACP), because that's what the local PD & SWAT folks use (or did, last I checked).

I've done a few pen tests with handgun loads and they often don't match what the boxoftruth results are (no offense to him, there's always a lot of variables), so I take those with a grain of salt.

mbwatson: I was stationed at Dyess 94-96, I hear the drug problem's gotten a lot rougher since then. I feel for your job.

[mbwatson]

From our tests, 9mm JHP, especially Speer gold dot, is a great improvement over the ball. Speer gold dot, Remington golden saber, Winchester Ranger SXT or any other reputable high quality hollow point, expandable anti-personnel round is about the best your are going to get really, in any caliber for mitigating over penetration and colateral damage aspects.

Stick with that; concentrate on your front sight post, maintain awareness of your target foreground and backstop and you will be successful in a lethal force encounter.

Great to hear from a former Dyess airman. I have a great relationship with the base both in police matters and military related. They always bend over backwards to assist and I try to return the favor in my treatment of the troops out there.

If I can be of any assistance don't hesitate to drop me a line and if by the chance that I don't answer in a timely fashion, I'll PM you my email address.

Mark

[Merc78]

Try this site. They test rifle, handgun, and shotgun rounds on all types of surface to see penetration.
http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot14.htm

[perdurabo]

Originally Posted by Merc78

Try this site. They test rifle, handgun, and shotgun rounds on all types of surface to see penetration.
http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot14.htm

Please read the first post in this thread which explains that I wanted real-world advice from those with real-world experience, and specifically, not boxoftruth links.

[The Reaper]

Originally Posted by Merc78

Try this site. They test rifle, handgun, and shotgun rounds on all types of surface to see penetration.
http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot14.htm

First read the thread, to include the OP, then post.

TR

[Streck-Fu]

Originally Posted by perdurabo

Advice, thoughts, & corrective actions appreciated.

This is a question that I am trying to answer as well and have been searching here off and for a little while.

Much of the information seems contradictory to the point that it seems no matter what you use, make sure you hit your target.

Some people state that the M193 is fine and does not overpenetrate while other information (Fakler, specifically) is quoted as saying that it is a poor choice.

The wound profile of the M193 bullet (page 29 of the Emergency War Surgery—NATO Handbook, GPO, Washington, D.C., 1988) shows that most often the bullet travels about five inches through flesh before beginning significant yaw. But about 15% of the time, it travels much farther than that before yawing—in which case it causes even milder wounds, if it missed bones, guts, lung, and major blood vessels. In my experience and research, at least as many M16 users in Vietnam concluded that it produced unacceptably minimal, rather than “massive”, wounds. After viewing the wound profile, recall that the Vietnamese were small people, and generally very slim. Many M16 bullets passed through their torsos traveling mostly point forward, and caused minimal damage. Most shots piercing an extremity, even in the heavier-built Americans, unless they hit bone, caused no more damage than a 22 caliber rimfire bullet.”

Fackler, ML: “Literature Review”. Wound Ballistics Review; 5(2):40, Fall 2001

For the opposite side of the coin, there is this summary how the TAP failed to stop a suspect after several shots as it lacked effective penetration.LINK

It seems that there are enough people that have successfully used a variety of .223/5.56 while others have seen it fail. In a home defense situation, I would hope to not miss at that range but with the conflicting information and accounts available, for now, I am sidelineing the AR a defensive choice and am staying with my 12g loaded with Federal 00B w/flight control.

Based on the information in this thread, I would like to locate some RBCD ammo before relying on the AR for home defense.

[The Reaper]

There is no magic bullet, though the RBCD/LeMas is very good.

Shot placement is key.

TR

[Merc78]

My apologies. I just read the thread title. Wont happen again.

[Iraqgunz]

Reaper,

Have there been any documented shootings with the LeMas ammo? I searched around and couldn't find anything concrete.

[The Reaper]

Originally Posted by Iraqgunz

Reaper,

Have there been any documented shootings with the LeMas ammo? I searched around and couldn't find anything concrete.

I have been present for a couple of dozen shootings with the LeMas on live tissue.

TR

[Iraqgunz]

Are you referring to the USSOCOM testing? In your honesty opinion do you htink that this round is truly worthwhile? Just curious because there is very little information out there about it.

Originally Posted by The Reaper

I have been present for a couple of dozen shootings with the LeMas on live tissue.

TR