Slavery - is it really wrong?

[nmap]

Please understand that I am quite serious with the question. I am not at all sure that slavery is morally wrong - which is not to say that I would enjoy being a slave, nor does it suggest I wish to own slaves. Rather, the issue I propose is a discussion of whether slavery is wrong in a moral sense, and, if so, why.

The seed for this line of thought was planted by Dusty in his post #49, at this LINK. Quoting: "SC seceeded because of Lincoln's stance on slavery which, as every sane person knows, was correct; it's wrong."

My interpretation of the sentence is the assertion that slavery is inherently wrong - a view in harmony with that of present-day society. Of course, if I'm in error, I welcome correction. I contend that I'm sane, but there is some risk of bias on my part.

It appears that slavery was broadly accepted until around 1815, when European leaders condemned the practice. Then, England passed the Wilberforce act in 1833 which abolished slavery. LINK

So, let us reflect for a moment. From early times - 2600 BCE, according to the link above - slavery was an accepted element of human life. The Romans did it. The Egyptians did it.

As nearly as I can tell, neither the Christian bible, nor the Jewish Torah - or for that matter, the Talmud - nor the Islamic Koran oppose the practice. There is a commandment against murder, but no such prohibition against enslavement. (Note: So far as I am aware. I have no qualifications as a religious scholar). It appears that Hinduism substitutes an hereditary caste system with aspects of slavery, but (seemingly) Hinduism does not sanction the practice. LINK

Why have slaves in the first place? I can see two reasons. First, as a source of labor. Second, as a mechanism for dealing with large numbers of prisoners. Let us examine these two possibilities further.

Slaves were the original renewable energy resource. So long as the slave was reasonably healthy, one could input a small quantity of food and extract a quantity of work that exceeded the value of the inputs. True, the margin wasn't very large - but there weren't any viable alternatives.

The problem lies in the margin. If slaves are captured, the cost of acquisition is relatively low. If purchased or created through reproduction, the costs are greater - the capital investment is such that the value of the return may cease to be worthwhile.

In addition, a captured prisoner represents an unproductive asset. In a society living with a small margin between production and required minimum consumption, maintaining an unproductive subpopulation may not be possible. Thus the question - what to do with enemy prisoners? The alternatives appear to be mass execution or slavery. In the case of slavery, the prisoners become net producers, and it is profitable to keep them alive. Therefore, slavery may have been the more compassionate alternative.

Now let's consider timing. Recall that the first stirrings of concern about slavery were mentioned in 1815. What other trend was developing at the same period? The industrial revolution, with its machines, coal, and steam. LINK

Perhaps the real reason for the end of slavery was not a moral awakening, but rather the discovery of more profitable ways to do things. If so, slavery becomes an economic choice, with a balance between costs and profits. The only morality is that of the balance sheet and income statement.

What is the alternative? Why was something accepted as moral behavior for over 4,000 years suddenly seen as otherwise? Shall we suppose that our souls have enjoyed spiritual evolution, and that we are now more pure - more sensitive to issues of right and wrong?

Here's a prediction - with the timing suitably vague, so as to avoid easy verification. Should our current energy use paradigm, and its resulting mass affluence fail, we will see slavery again.

[Dusty]

Let me rephrase to say "to take away a person's freedom is inherently wrong."
Freedom being what it was worth at the time of the War in discussion.

See, if you take a man's liberty from him, you oppress him.

[Pete]

Hmmmmmm

While reading through your post my mind drifted off to mental pictures of sharecroppers and people living in a company town, shopping at the company store and working in the company coal mine.

Are house servants in the Middle East under a similar employment status as slavery? Beaten to death with little notice from the law seems kinda' like ownership.

[mojaveman]

Slavery is an accepted element of human life only by those who have the power and ability to enslave the enslaved.

[Richard]

De oppresso liber.

Richard

[nmap]

Originally Posted by Dusty

See, if you take a man's liberty from him, you oppress him.

True. More pointedly, the person who is lost liberty will almost certainly be used, abused, and forced into a miserable existence.

And yet, such things have been a part of human existence for a long time. What makes it other than moral?

Originally Posted by Pete

Hmmmmmm

While reading through your post my mind drifted off to mental pictures of sharecroppers and people living in a company town, shopping at the company store and working in the company coal mine.

Are house servants in the Middle East under a similar employment status as slavery? Beaten to death with little notice from the law seems kinda' like ownership.

Very true. And then there are the folks who work for a meager wage in various third-world countries. They get enough to survive - barely - in horrific conditions. When they get sick, or old, or cannot produce, they are no longer employed. A valuable slave might receive some care - but a mere employee would simply be replaced.

In these cases, labor is rented instead of purchased - a more efficient use of capital.

[longrange1947]

As an aside, slavery is practiced today in several parts of the world, so to say we have evolved is not the answer. To say we have found a cheaper slave n the developed world, ie machines, would be correct. As for those areas that slavery still thives, teh industrial revolution has passed them by.

And yes, there is still slavery today in the US, beatings and all. Think about it.

[1stindoor]

This is an interesting thread and I think some definitions of a "slave" are needed. Outright slavery is indeed wrong on many levels, yet I can not help but think that a good majority of Americans are slaves to their own jobs and lifestyles. Take the middle management corporate employee that trudges into and out of work every day. Leaves at 0-dark thirty, packs in his lunch, takes the train, walks from the station to his little cubicle and goes through the mundane existence that is his life. He wants to quit, he wants to slow down, he wants to relax and go fishing, read, etc. Yet with a hefty mortgage of an overpriced house in the suburbs, kids in school, college tuition on the horizon he knows he has to work to maintain and has neither the time nor the energy nor the resources to change his lot in life...his "hope" is that his children will have it better.

[Paslode]

Originally Posted by nmap

Perhaps the real reason for the end of slavery was not a moral awakening, but rather the discovery of more profitable ways to do things. If so, slavery becomes an economic choice, with a balance between costs and profits. The only morality is that of the balance sheet and income statement.

It was always my impression from listening to the old folks talk that Slavery had more to do with the ROI of the plantation owners that it did for the need of able bodied workers. And a large portion of non-slave owning whites resented the colored folk because they took their jobs.

For Example: Master Tom Moore might get 5 Good Blacks for the same amount he would pay yearly to a White.

Originally Posted by nmap

Here's a prediction - with the timing suitably vague, so as to avoid easy verification. Should our current energy use paradigm, and its resulting mass affluence fail, we will see slavery again.

I already see it....every time I drive thru McD's or Taco ball, and every roofing crew I see working in the area.

[1stindoor]

Originally Posted by nmap

...And then there are the folks who work for a meager wage in various third-world countries. They get enough to survive - barely - in horrific conditions. When they get sick, or old, or cannot produce, they are no longer employed. A valuable slave might receive some care - but a mere employee would simply be replaced.

In these cases, labor is rented instead of purchased - a more efficient use of capital.

And I submit, we as an collective "consumer" are responsible for a lot of those "horrific conditions."

Everyone wants the SuperWalmart and the $5.00 T-shirts. No one cares that the shirts were made for pennies by someone in Guatamala.

[longrange1947]

My reference to slavery today is about real slavery and not a notional slavery of being a slave to the grindstone. Big city dwellers see alot of slves every day and probably do not realize it or don't give a flying fart. However, the slaves exist in all parts of the US. Just becasue we are "civilized" does not mean that certain segments of our society also abhor slavery just as many in todays society see no wrong in dog and cock fighting. But to turn a blind eye and ignore the facts is aiding and abetting the worng doers.

My 2 cents and now STFU.

[Richard]

What is slavery?

To be a slave is to be controlled by another person or persons so that your will does not determine your life's course, and rewards for your work and sacrifices are not yours to claim. While people today most likely believe that slavery is a thing of the past, the practice is still thriving wherever poverty, social conditions, and gullability can be exploited. Estimates are that there are 27 million slaves in the world today. - Kevin Bales, Disposable People: New Slavery in the Global Economy, University of California Press, 1999.

The International Labor Organization (ILO) says there are eight main forms of forced labor in the world today. ILO's definitions and the countries it cites as examples of where the practices exist:

Slavery - A "physical abduction" followed by forced labor.

Congo, Liberia, Mauritania, Sierra Leone and Sudan

Farm and Rural Debt Bondage - Workers see all their wages go to paying for transportation, food and shelter because they've been "locked into debt" by unscrupulous job recruiters and landowners - and they can't leave because of force, threats or the remote location of the worksites.

Benin, Bolivia, Brazil, Cote d'Ivoire, Dominican Republic, Guatemala, Haiti, Mexico, Paraguay, Peru, Togo

Bonded Labor - Another form of debt bondage, it often starts with the worker agreeing to provide labor in exchange for a loan, but quickly develops into bondage as the employer adds more and more "debt" to the bargain.

Bangladesh, India, Nepal, Pakistán, Sri Lanka

People Trafficking - Individuals are forced or tricked into going somewhere by someone who will profit from selling them or forcing them to work against their will, most often in sexual trades. Many countries are both "origins" and "destinations" for victims.

Albania, Belarus, Bosnia and Herzegovina, Brazil, China, Colombia, Cote d'Ivoire, Czech Republic, Dominican Republic, Ecuador, France, Ghana, Haiti, Honduras, Hungary, Israel, Italy, Republic of Korea, Laos, Latvia, Malaysia, Moldova, Myanmar, the Netherlands, Nepal, Nigeria, Philippines, Poland, Romania, Russia, Thailand, Ukraine, United Kingdom, USA, Vietnam, Yugoslavia

Abuse of Domestic Workers - Maids and other domestic servants are sold to their employers or bonded to them by debts.

Benin, Cote d'Ivoire, France, Haiti, the Middle East

Prison Labor - The contracting out of prison labor or forcing of prisoners to work for profit-making enterprises.

Australia, Austria, China, Cote d'Ivoire, France, Germany, New Zealand, Madagascar, Malaysia, USA

Compulsory Work - People are required by law to work on public construction projects such as roads and bridges.

Cambodia, the Central African Republic, Kenya, Burma (also known as Myanmar), Sierra Leone, Swaziland, Tanzania, Vietnam

Military Labor - Civilians are forced to do work for government authorities or the military.

Burma (also known as Myanmar)

Lots of info and things to think about on the topic here:

Human Rights Ed Associates - http://www.hrea.org/index.php?doc_id=1

Richard

[1stindoor]

Originally Posted by Richard

What is slavery?

Thanks Richard for the definitions...If only there were someone...specially trained in human trafficking...someone who could draw upon his own experiences and train the rest of us...where could we find such a man?

[Pete]

Originally Posted by Richard

What is slavery?

To be a slave is to be controlled by another person or persons so that your will does not determine your life's course, and rewards for your work and sacrifices are not yours to claim. ...........................

Dang, that kinda' reads like a female's life in the middle east.

But who are we to judge. All cultures are equal.

[Richard]

Where do we draw the line?

In the sand.

Richard