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View Poll Results: Swift Boat Vets: Good or Bad for Bush?
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Good
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16 |
76.19% |
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Bad
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4 |
19.05% |
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No impact
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1 |
4.76% |
08-23-2004, 17:16
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#1
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Consigliere
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Free Pineland (at last)
Posts: 8,833
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Let's talk about Swift Boat Vets for Truth
Are they good or bad for Bush? Why?
http://www.swiftvets.com
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Roguish Lawyer is offline
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08-23-2004, 18:45
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#2
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Guerrilla
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: between the desert and the sea
Posts: 460
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Bad for Bush's campaign. He has probably been advised as such, as he condemed the ads after finding out that one of his advisors on veterans issues (Kenneth Cordier) was participating in the ads. KC was subsequently dismissed as advisor.
SBVFT is only relevant if they are acting out of concern about Kerry's leadership. But they have failed to make it appear so. At least half of the swing voters will be able to tell how personal the attack is, and that it is motivated by JKs testimony after his service, and the fact that SBVFT step up to the plate 36 years after it happened doesnt look good.
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For more than thirty years, most Vietnam veterans kept silent as we were maligned as misfits, addicts, and baby killers. Now that a key creator of that poisonous image is seeking the Presidency we have resolved to end our silence.
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WHY did they keep silent?
There is also still a question of how Bush's military time in Alabama and Texas air NG was spent. Although pay records have been accidentally destroyed, there is a microfilmed personnel file at the Texas State Library which Associated Press is suing Bush to see. Why doesnt the president just release the microfilm, so we can just get on with this?
My opinion, and worth what you paid for it.
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pulque is offline
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08-23-2004, 18:47
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#3
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Quiet Professional
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: LA
Posts: 1,653
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Good, especially if there are no ties.
Sun Tzu - "Moving the Opponent About" and "Using Others to Create momentum". The Kerry Camp is doing nothing but responding to this. They have lost the initiative. They can't stay on message for trying to put out fires.
Classic SF strategy.
What I want to know is what Green Hats POTUS has in his campaign. 
__________________
Somewhere a True Believer is training to kill you. He is training with minimal food or water, in austere conditions, training day and night. The only thing clean on him is his weapon and he made his web gear. He doesn't worry about what workout to do - his ruck weighs what it weighs, his runs end when the enemy stops chasing him. This True Believer is not concerned about 'how hard it is;' he knows either he wins or dies. He doesn't go home at 17:00, he is home.
He knows only The Cause.
Still want to quit?
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NousDefionsDoc is offline
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08-23-2004, 19:00
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#4
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Quiet Professional
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Free Pineland
Posts: 24,813
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Was moveon.org good for Kerry, or bad for him? Where was Kerry when the compared POTUS to Hitler?
These ads are saying what the candidate can't say.
The candidate can deny it, decry it, and make counter-accusations, but the damage has already been done.
This is doubly effective, because Kerry made his service the centerpiece of his campaign. Self-inflicted (and delusional) gunshot wound there.
If he had run on his actions since he bacame a Senator, this would have been much less relevant and less damaging.
The ads have also played the next card, which is to remind people of Kerry's post-VN record, which is going to hurt him seriously with the vets who may have missed "The Forgotten Years" of Kerry's career.
This smear may cause thousands who would have stayed howm to come out and join the "Anybody But Kerry" bandwagon. Hope he likes his taste of that.
Finally, the SBVFTT and the ad have served as a rallying point, put some energy into the campaign, brought money in, and garnered millions in free ads on the major networks as they aied snippets of the ad campaign. POTUS can ignore the ads thill their damage and effectiveness is done, then deny them and cry foul.
Kerry is having to spend money he was saving, in order to counter allegations which are sticking, and bringing up an ugly period in his career.
What's not to like?
TR
__________________
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming; but who does actually strive to do the deeds; who knows great enthusiasms, the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat." - President Theodore Roosevelt, 1910
De Oppresso Liber 01/20/2025
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The Reaper is offline
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08-23-2004, 19:08
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#5
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Quiet Professional
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Free Pineland
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Quote:
Originally posted by pulque
WHY did they keep silent?
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Because no one in Mass of any significance cared.
Quote:
Originally posted by pulque
There is also still a question of how Bush's military time in Alabama and Texas air NG was spent. Although pay records have been accidentally destroyed, there is a microfilmed personnel file at the Texas State Library which Associated Press is suing Bush to see. Why doesnt the president just release the microfilm, so we can just get on with this?
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If the Dems go after bush, ala Harkin's attack on Cheney, the POTUS needs to fire back hard and ask if they are equating NG service with draft dodging and cowardice.
Just my .02 as well.
TR
__________________
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming; but who does actually strive to do the deeds; who knows great enthusiasms, the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat." - President Theodore Roosevelt, 1910
De Oppresso Liber 01/20/2025
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The Reaper is offline
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08-23-2004, 19:11
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#6
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Guerrilla
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: between the desert and the sea
Posts: 460
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Quote:
Originally posted by NousDefionsDoc
Good, especially if there are no ties.
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There are ties. Bush has already condemed the ad, saying Kerry served admirably.
I'm still holding out for the Truth.
In the meantime, one truth is that despite the polarization, the issues will still play a large part in the election.
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pulque is offline
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08-23-2004, 19:14
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#7
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Quiet Professional
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: DFW Texas Area
Posts: 4,741
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Quote:
Originally posted by The Reaper
This is doubly effective, because Kerry made his service the centerpiece of his campaign. Self-inflicted (and delusional) gunshot wound there.
If he had run on his actions since he bacame a Senator, this would have been much less relevant and less damaging.
The ads have also played the next card, which is to remind people of Kerry's post-VN record, which is going to hurt him seriously with the vets who may have missed "The Forgotten Years" of Kerry's career.
What's not to like?
TR
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Exactly !!! Kerry was trying to get the focus away from his EXTREMELY lackluster and OVERTLY LIBERAL years in the Senate. He succeeded, but at a much higher price than I think his handlers are willing to pay !!!
I still would like to know not how many green hats were involved, but how much Klintoon involvement there IS !!! They know that they can only succeed if they pull the rug out from under Scary !!!
Later
Martin
__________________
Martin sends.
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Ambush Master is offline
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08-23-2004, 19:22
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#8
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Quiet Professional
Join Date: Jan 2004
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Quote:
Originally posted by pulque
There are ties.
In the meantime, one truth is that despite the polarization, the issues will still play a large part in the election.
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1. I'm not seeing anything other than one staffer being a member of both organizations. You think no one on Kerry's campaign has a link to moveon.org?
2. In this campaign (as in the last), a few hundred votes in the right state can make the difference between being President of the U.S., and a has been. Ask AlGore if he would have liked to have had a few hundred gun owners votes in 2000.
TR
__________________
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming; but who does actually strive to do the deeds; who knows great enthusiasms, the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat." - President Theodore Roosevelt, 1910
De Oppresso Liber 01/20/2025
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The Reaper is offline
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08-23-2004, 19:23
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#9
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Guerrilla
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: between the desert and the sea
Posts: 460
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Quote:
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Because no one in Mass of any significance cared.
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If we are just conversating here, I dont think thats a good reason sir. If an issue is important, as this is, waiting until somebody cares is an exercise in futility. Perhaps it is a purely democratic value that significance is created?
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If the Dems go after bush, ala Harkin's attack on Cheney, the POTUS needs to fire back hard and ask if they are equating NG service with draft dodging and cowardice.
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Yeah. Though unlike this Kerry v. SBVFT debacle where there are hundreds of witnesses, not one person can corroborate that the POTUS served during 1972-1973 and was not in fact AWOL. In my uneducated opinion, AWOL is equated to draft dodging and cowardice.
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pulque is offline
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08-23-2004, 19:26
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#10
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Auxiliary
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Ft. Lee, VA
Posts: 61
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by NousDefionsDoc
...They can't stay on message for trying to put out fires.
I am honestly still trying to figure out what their message is - or if they even have one. Kerry seems to have carefully avoided alienating any possible voter by sidestepping the issues. He seems to have hoped to ride on the "anybody but Bush" mentality.
In a way, this SBVFT thing has allowed the DNC to avoid questions about any real - current - issues.
Also - do any of you smart types know why a connection to the SBVFT would be considered illegal for the Republican Campaign, yet the DNC was able to invite Michael Moore to their convention - seating him next to a former president? How exactly is the law worded?
__________________
"Ignorantque datos, ne quisquam serviat, enses"
-Lucanus (A.D. 39-65), De Bello Civili
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Adam White is offline
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08-23-2004, 19:30
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#11
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Quiet Professional
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Free Pineland
Posts: 24,813
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Quote:
Originally posted by pulque
If we are just conversating here, I dont think thats a good reason sir. If an issue is important, as this is, waiting until somebody cares is an exercise in futility. Perhaps it is a purely democratic value that significance is created?
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Did you see the conference the SWVFT had six months ago? Neither did anyone else outside the room. The media and the ads are making this visible.
Quote:
Originally posted by pulque
Yeah. Though unlike this Kerry v. SBVFT debacle where there are hundreds of witnesses, not one person can corroborate that the POTUS served during 1972-1973 and was not in fact AWOL. In my uneducated opinion, AWOL is equated to draft dodging and cowardice.
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Good thing you are not running. Not going to drill for a few months or being absent from your place of duty (allegedly) is wrong and stupid, but does not equal draft dodging and cowardice, IMHO. It is not like he ran away to England, Russia, or Canada, for example.
Frankly, pulque, the ads are not aimed at you. They are aimed at the undecided/leaning Independent voter, especially vets.
The real message is the ad that is out now, and the anticipated next one.
TR
__________________
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming; but who does actually strive to do the deeds; who knows great enthusiasms, the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat." - President Theodore Roosevelt, 1910
De Oppresso Liber 01/20/2025
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The Reaper is offline
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08-23-2004, 19:31
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#12
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Quiet Professional
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Williamston, SC
Posts: 2,018
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Pulque: This is one time I have to say: "You weren't there"
There were two main groups of vets -- other than those who stayed on active duty. The first group, the majority had to go to work and support families. Even so they bore disapproval and abuse. They remained silent, at the time, out of necessity. They had jobs and families unlike the second group.
The second group were whiners, dressed in smelly fatigues, covered with pins, patches and bedecked in beads atc. They merely reionforced the pre-conceived notion of the screwed up GI's.
Speak out? Believe me I did when the occasion arose. Children of my children's generation believed that "Platoon" was the real deal. I had long talks telling my children that no doper was ever allowed in a compound where I was. We would not trust our lives to dopers and boozers.
I can't find the impromptu words to do justice to my thoughts. Whether Kerry or Bush had admirable records doesn't mean a rat's behind to me. However I spent 3 1/2 years in SEA and never raped a girl, killed a child or cut off ears. We did what had to be done but attrocities weren't on the menu.
Kerry owes 2 1/2 million veterans of Vietnam a SINCERE apology.
Sorry for the rant but I have very strong feelings on the issue. I have been spit upon and called names by the Likes of Kerry.
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QRQ 30 is offline
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08-23-2004, 19:32
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#13
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Quiet Professional
Join Date: Jan 2004
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Quote:
Originally posted by Adam White
Also - do any of you smart types know why a connection to the SBVFT would be considered illegal for the Republican Campaign, yet the DNC was able to invite Michael Moore to their convention - seating him next to a former president? How exactly is the law worded?
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It doesn't matter.
It only matters if the media thinks it is unfair, and calls foul, publicly.
TR
__________________
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming; but who does actually strive to do the deeds; who knows great enthusiasms, the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat." - President Theodore Roosevelt, 1910
De Oppresso Liber 01/20/2025
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The Reaper is offline
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08-23-2004, 19:32
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#14
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Consigliere
Join Date: Jan 2004
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AW:
I am going to allow AL to answer your question, as I don't want to encroach on his AO.
But I wanted to tell you that I believe that Fort Walton Beach must have the largest concentration of Tattoo/Piercing shops I have ever seen -- and I live not far from Hollywood!!!
RL
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Roguish Lawyer is offline
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08-23-2004, 19:37
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#15
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Guerrilla
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: between the desert and the sea
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Quote:
Originally posted by The Reaper
It doesn't matter.
It only matters if the media thinks it is unfair, and calls foul, publicly.
TR
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Bush fired him. Bush fired the man because somebody in the media thought it was unfair?
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pulque is offline
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