11-22-2010, 17:17
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#1
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Quiet Professional
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Free Pineland
Posts: 24,810
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U.S. Not Prepared
Beslan or Mumbai, bad guys are coming to your country.
We are sending signals of weakness.
Soon, we will have hard decisions to make, and it will get harder if we do not make the right ones.
TR
http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cg...INRG1GCFBT.DTL
U.S. not prepared for Mumbai-like terror attacks
John Arquilla
Sunday, November 21, 2010
It took the 10 terrorists just 10 minutes to overwhelm Mumbai's defenses when they struck in November 2008. They were organized in five two-man teams, and the first waded into the crowd at one of India's biggest railway stations, firing AK-47s and tossing grenades. Soon more than 50 people were dead, a hundred more wounded. While this was going on, three other teams got out of cabs in other parts of the city and walked into two luxury hotels and a swanky restaurant, letting loose with guns and grenades. A fifth team stormed a Jewish community center, killing people and taking hostages.
After the initial wave of attacks, most of the Lashkar-e-Taiba hit men moved on before the police tactical units arrived, and soon five more targets had been struck, including a hospital. Bombs left by the terrorists at other points in the city as they moved around also began going off. It would take Indian law enforcement and military elements three days to bring an end to the crisis, by which time the toll of dead and wounded had reached almost 500.
Today, the concept of attacks by small teams at several sites simultaneously - what I have called "swarm" tactics - has caught on among terrorists. This month alone, we have seen such methods employed in the simultaneous bombings in Baghdad, where over 400 were killed, and in Karachi, Pakistan, two weeks ago, where small teams waged gun battles while a truck bomb went off at a major police installation. Recent intelligence revelations have gone further, suggesting that al Qaeda is planning to swarm cities in France and Germany in the same manner. And there is another hard truth: The next Mumbai-, Baghdad- or Karachi-style attacks could happen in San Francisco. Because, for all these warning signs, there is little evidence that our nation has made effective defensive preparations against assaults of this sort.
(continued at above link)
__________________
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming; but who does actually strive to do the deeds; who knows great enthusiasms, the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat." - President Theodore Roosevelt, 1910
De Oppresso Liber 01/20/2025
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The Reaper is offline
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11-22-2010, 17:36
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#2
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Area Commander
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Page/Lake Powell, Arizona
Posts: 3,405
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Only way to stop this sort of thing is with an armed populace.
__________________
__________________
Waiting for the perfect moment is a fruitless endeavor.
Make a decision, and then make it the right one through your actions.
"Whoever watches the wind will not plant; whoever looks at the clouds will not reap." -Ecclesiastes 11:4 (NIV)
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GratefulCitizen is offline
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11-22-2010, 17:41
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#3
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RIP Quiet Professional
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: The Ozarks
Posts: 10,072
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We need to quit mollycoddling these vermin, get proactive and destroy them prior to the next (inevitable) attack.
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Dusty is offline
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11-22-2010, 17:46
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#4
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Quiet Professional (RIP)
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Carriere,Ms.
Posts: 6,922
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Reaper
Beslan or Mumbai, bad guys are coming to your country.
We are sending signals of weakness.
Soon, we will have hard decisions to make, and it will get harder if we do not make the right ones.
TR
http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cg...INRG1GCFBT.DTL
U.S. not prepared for Mumbai-like terror attacks
John Arquilla
Sunday, November 21, 2010
It took the 10 terrorists just 10 minutes to overwhelm Mumbai's defenses when they struck in November 2008. They were organized in five two-man teams, and the first waded into the crowd at one of India's biggest railway stations, firing AK-47s and tossing grenades. Soon more than 50 people were dead, a hundred more wounded. While this was going on, three other teams got out of cabs in other parts of the city and walked into two luxury hotels and a swanky restaurant, letting loose with guns and grenades. A fifth team stormed a Jewish community center, killing people and taking hostages.
After the initial wave of attacks, most of the Lashkar-e-Taiba hit men moved on before the police tactical units arrived, and soon five more targets had been struck, including a hospital. Bombs left by the terrorists at other points in the city as they moved around also began going off. It would take Indian law enforcement and military elements three days to bring an end to the crisis, by which time the toll of dead and wounded had reached almost 500.
Today, the concept of attacks by small teams at several sites simultaneously - what I have called "swarm" tactics - has caught on among terrorists. This month alone, we have seen such methods employed in the simultaneous bombings in Baghdad, where over 400 were killed, and in Karachi, Pakistan, two weeks ago, where small teams waged gun battles while a truck bomb went off at a major police installation. Recent intelligence revelations have gone further, suggesting that al Qaeda is planning to swarm cities in France and Germany in the same manner. And there is another hard truth: The next Mumbai-, Baghdad- or Karachi-style attacks could happen in San Francisco. Because, for all these warning signs, there is little evidence that our nation has made effective defensive preparations against assaults of this sort.
(continued at above link)
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TR,
You know better than I that the majority of Americans don't really give a s**t about this until it's to late.....ie:9/11...... we'll only respond after the damage is done which of course is too late........ When will we ever learn?...........
Big Teddy
__________________
I believe that SF is a 'calling' - not too different from the calling missionaries I know received. I knew instantly that it was for me, and that I would do all I could to achieve it. Most others I know in SF experienced something similar. If, as you say, you HAVE searched and read, and you do not KNOW if this is the path for you --- it is not....
Zonie Diver
SF is a calling and it requires commitment and dedication that the uninitiated will never understand......
Jack Moroney
SFA M-2527, Chapter XXXVII
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greenberetTFS is offline
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11-22-2010, 18:08
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#5
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Quiet Professional
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Fayetteville
Posts: 13,080
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Too big
America is too big to place a cop on every corner, a SWAT Team in every neighborhood, Cemical/Bio Teams at every Fire Station.
Even though the politicians loved to hand out Homeland Defense Money for the most part it was pork. Passed out as pork and spent as pork.
So what are the solutions? A liberal open carry policy - but one still with a training and license requirement? A forward kick 'um in the ass and call them what they are policy? A combination of the two.
Neither is politically correct.
There will be an attack and there will be teeth knashing and wailing - and then the government with pass some gun control laws and investigate right wing militias. But never, never, never call a spade a spade.
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Pete is offline
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11-22-2010, 18:13
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#6
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Area Commander
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Occupied Wokeville
Posts: 4,645
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GratefulCitizen
Only way to stop this sort of thing is with an armed populace.
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That is not a bad idea, but Andy Traver is likely to leave Chitown for Obamaville and he wants your guns. Once that happens the BATFE will likely prosecute you for protecting yourself as they will see it as taking the law into your own hands.
Secondly, most of us regular folks don't have the training or haven't honed the skills we would need to properly and safely (as safe as a 2-way range can be) engage such an enemy.
A Russian theater or Mumbai Event takes little more than the blink of an eye and it is too late. I don't know of a city in my proximity that has the capability to respond to that type situation and add to that most of the people are back in the routine of a safe, worry free life. If it were to happen here, we would have a horrible situation on our hands.
__________________
Quote:
When a man dies, if nothing is written, he is soon forgotten.
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Paslode is offline
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11-22-2010, 19:06
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#7
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Guerrilla Chief
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Ft Benning
Posts: 707
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Paslode
A Russian theater or Mumbai Event takes little more than the blink of an eye and it is too late.
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Agree the execution is often based on surprise and violence of action but the Achilles heel, IMO, is the pre-strike planning. The theater, the school, and even the city of Mumbai all had "long" planning that required coordination, target designation/financing, and commo.
How did LET get to Mumbai? How did the Chechens get to Moscow and Beslan? Could a strike team use Mexico as a launch point? Could they get weapons there too? Taliban control opium...drug cartels control Mexico...would the two ever work towards a common goal (money and power)?
I believe the only way we can delay the swarm-style attack is to go on the offense but heck, we cannot even get permission to expand Pred strikes in Pakistan!
The political will to unilaterally go deep into denied territory in order to strike our enemies just doesn't seem to exist and the focus seems to be on fixing the economy. So let's cut DOD since Iraq is over and Afghanistan will be over in 36 months.
AQ has always exercised tactical patience...and they return to what works. Just as TR pointed out, swarm-style attacks are common now. The attackers only stop when they have been killed by security forces. Seems like an easy choice to me.
The holiday season is almost upon us. Soon the malls will be full of unarmed and distracted Americans focused on other things besides survival because the USG claims they are doing everything possible to protect its citizens by using scanners and pat-downs. Hmmm...similar situations exist (crowded shopping centers) in Israel but they have dodged a mall attack. I wonder what they're doing (rhetorical)?
__________________
"I see that you notice that I wear glasses. Well, it was to be. I've not only grown old and gray, I've become almost blind in the service of my country." - General George Washington
"There are times in your life you'll be required to perform an exceedingly difficult task to the best of your ability, regardless of your perceived capability. Mental toughness is what will carry the day during these times. In other words, you suck it up and do what you have to do." - Razor
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lindy is offline
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11-22-2010, 20:08
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#8
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Guerrilla Chief
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Texas
Posts: 830
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Any armed citizen is better than no armed citizens.
I could be wrong but from what I saw in the Mumbai videos, and what I have read armed people could have reduced the damage and death toll. Some possible examples of places and times when armed people could have had an impact.
The video in the train station shows one terrorist walkiing unchallanged through the terminal, one or more armed civilian could have stopped him with some training or luck.
On the streets I don't know and have no information to make a guess about what may have helped.
The public areas of the hotel had both guests and employeed they had no way to defend themselves. Armed guests and or employees could have reduced the number of attackers or at least forced them to slow down or change plans.
Hotel guests in their rooms if armed could barricade the entry points and offered a last line of defense. Even armored attackers offer targest when slowed down by barricades and obsticles.
I am untrained in close combat, and could easily have this all wrong, but my opinion is that any action is better than rolling over to die.
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Oldrotorhead is offline
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11-22-2010, 21:08
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#9
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Quiet Professional
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Currently FT. Bragg
Posts: 622
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I have a feeling that "when" this attacks accure it will be on our softest of soft targets that will have the most emotional responses places like Schools(of all Levels) and churches.
__________________
There is only one tactical principal which is not subject to change. It is to use the means at hand to inflict the maximum amount of wounds, death and destruction on the enemy in the minimum amount of time.
Gen. George S. Patton, Jr.
Last edited by Jgood; 11-23-2010 at 11:41.
Reason: spelling
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Jgood is offline
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11-22-2010, 22:07
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#10
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Quiet Professional
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Occupied Pineland
Posts: 4,701
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jgood
I have a feeling that "when" this attacks accure it will be on our softest of soft targets that will have the most emotional responses places like Schools(of all Levels) and chruches.
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I have a feeling that "when" this attack occurs the aftermath will make the TSA "patdowns" look positively benevolent. Prepare to endure what the bleating sheep will demand the government provide in the illusory name of safety.
__________________
A nation can survive its fools, and even the ambitious. But it cannot survive treason from within. An enemy at the gates is less formidable, for he is known and carries his banner openly. But the traitor moves amongst those within the gate freely, his sly whispers rustling through all the alleys, heard in the very halls of government itself. For the traitor appears not a traitor; he speaks in accents familiar to his victims, and he wears their face and their arguments, he appeals to the baseness that lies deep in the hearts of all men. He rots the soul of a nation, he works secretly and unknown in the night to undermine the pillars of the city, he infects the body politic so that it can no longer resist. A murderer is less to fear.
~ Marcus Tullius Cicero (42B.C)
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Peregrino is offline
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11-22-2010, 22:20
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#11
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Quiet Professional
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Wilson,NC
Posts: 1,506
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Agreed it is just a matter of time. When this tactic is used in Europe, there will still be many here who think of it as an "over there" problem and "it can't happen here." These are the same liberal politicians who will try to push for more gun control on American citizens.
I think if that happens though, it will backfire, as that would be the catalyst to bring out the ordinary citizenry who refuse to be led to the slaughter. There would be a definite rise in so called "militia activity." People would be taking the law into their own hands as they would see how ineffective the government would be at protecting them and their families. It will be a scenario that I hope we never see, but I am not holding my breath.
__________________
"Solitude is strength; to depend on the presence of the crowd is weakness. The man who needs a mob to nerve him is much more alone than he imagines."
~ Paul Brunton (1898-1981)
R.D. Winters
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rdret1 is offline
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11-22-2010, 22:22
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#12
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Area Commander
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Clay House Stuttgart, Germany
Posts: 2,670
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Could a strike team use Mexico as a launch point? Could they get weapons there too? Taliban control opium...drug cartels control Mexico...would the two ever work towards a common goal (money and power)?
[/QUOTE]
Interesting point.
Are we going to see a much larger conglomeration of evil forces intent on destroying western civilization?
Last edited by mojaveman; 11-23-2010 at 13:12.
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mojaveman is offline
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11-22-2010, 22:22
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#13
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Area Commander
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Occupied Wokeville
Posts: 4,645
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Peregrino
I have a feeling that "when" this attack occurs the aftermath will make the TSA "patdowns" look positively benevolent. Prepare to endure what the bleating sheep will demand the government provide in the illusory name of safety.
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We will hang our ourselves and the Government will have no issue supplying rope to assist us in the task.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mojaveman
Could a strike team use Mexico as a launch point? Could they get weapons there too? Taliban control opium...drug cartels control Mexico...would the two ever work towards a common goal (money and power)?
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There have been reports/rumors of prayer rugs being found along our border with Mexico and of Hezbollah scampering across the border as well. Guns...if the Cartel can get them, I would bet others can acquire weapons as well. And lets not forget that even if some are crossing the border, we already had and have operating cells from various groups operating in our borders....which I believe Warrior Mentor mentioned before in other topics.
Here is a link to a map listing the groups and their locations:
http://www.investigativeproject.org/maps.php
__________________
Quote:
When a man dies, if nothing is written, he is soon forgotten.
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Last edited by Paslode; 11-22-2010 at 22:36.
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Paslode is offline
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11-22-2010, 22:54
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#14
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Area Commander
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Page/Lake Powell, Arizona
Posts: 3,405
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Paslode
That is not a bad idea, but Andy Traver is likely to leave Chitown for Obamaville and he wants your guns. Once that happens the BATFE will likely prosecute you for protecting yourself as they will see it as taking the law into your own hands.
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I live in Arizona.
What charge would the BATFE bring here?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paslode
Secondly, most of us regular folks don't have the training or haven't honed the skills we would need to properly and safely (as safe as a 2-way range can be) engage such an enemy.
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<shrug>
I'm guessing their chances would still be better armed than they would be unarmed.
If something like this were to happen, it would be nice if Governor Brewer would hold a press conference reminding the world that Arizona has unlicensed concealed carry and that terrorists would stand much better chances in New York, Massachusetts, or even Washington, D.C.
Some of us are fortunate enough to already live in Free America.
__________________
__________________
Waiting for the perfect moment is a fruitless endeavor.
Make a decision, and then make it the right one through your actions.
"Whoever watches the wind will not plant; whoever looks at the clouds will not reap." -Ecclesiastes 11:4 (NIV)
Last edited by GratefulCitizen; 11-22-2010 at 22:56.
Reason: corrected term
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GratefulCitizen is offline
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11-23-2010, 09:15
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#15
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Quiet Professional
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Clarksville, TN
Posts: 1,163
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"Mumbai style attack"
Quote:
And there is another hard truth: The next Mumbai-, Baghdad- or Karachi-style attacks could happen in San Francisco.
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Well, if they are going to pick a city, San Francisco is as good a place as any. Definitely won't be any armed resistance from the sheeple.
Second best for a defenseless populace: New York, Chicago. Or anywhere in New Jersey.
MEMO FOR TERRORISTS
Places to avoid:
1 - Anywhere in Tennessee.
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