Should you take the beating?

fng13 · 05-14-2010, 11:14

After reading this article and watching the video I began to wonder what you should do in a situation like this. Do you just take the beating or do you fight back? If you fight back it seems more likely that something worse is going to happen to you as far as the courts go, but that beating sure doesn't look to fun.

Edit by the Team Sergeant, do not ever link the huf post to this website again. This thread is done and it was stupid and my mistake for not catching it sooner. While I don't find it surprising that the spinless left-wing, knuckle biting, bed-wetters posted this as police abuse it will not be show cased here. That said, lets try another approach, and OBEY the Police officers orders so as to not receive an ass whooping. This thread is closed.

rubberneck · 05-14-2010, 11:24

You don't have to worry about what the courts are going to you if you are dead. I am not advocating using force against a LEO but assuming that the officer was way out of line and that his use of force was unwarranted and thus illegitimate and I felt my life was at stake, I would do what ever I have to do so that I go home.

greenberetTFS · 05-14-2010, 11:33

I lived in Streamwood for over 20 years and something like this never,ever occurred!.......

Big Teddy

MeC86 · 05-14-2010, 11:38

The officer probably wanted the subject completely prone, instead of just on his knees. This is why its important to give verbal commands while using force. He also forgot the part of his training that states if a certain use of force isnt working, you need to do something else. Clearly, striking a subject multiple times with a baton without result means something isnt working.

The actions of one affect many.

bandycpa · 05-14-2010, 11:58

If you've been tasered and beat excessively about the arm, neck, and head, I don't think you'd have any choice but *to* take the beating.

Why wouldn't the suspect go down flat on his own? And what does it mean that his friend had to stretch him out to help him get in the prone position?

rubberneck · 05-14-2010, 12:05

I am curious to know if hitting a suspect in the head with a baton is considered deadly force?

highspeedmdd · 05-14-2010, 12:41

Well, the first mistake the guy made was getting out of his car. When that happens, LE friends tell me that they feel they are no longer in control of the situation. A friend of mine who was a Texas Ranger (not baseball...) told me stay in your car with your hands on top of the steering wheel and wait for LE to come to you and tell you what they want you to do. If you jump out of the car, they no longer control the situation.

But, that said, I would probably just take the beating and find a good lawyer...

Sten · 05-14-2010, 13:04

Hitting an on duty police for any reason is a really bad idea.

rubberneck · 05-14-2010, 13:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sten

Hitting an on duty police for any reason is a really bad idea.

You think?

rdret1 · 05-14-2010, 13:56

“Citizens may resist unlawful arrest to the point of taking an arresting officer's life if necessary.” Plummer v. State, 136 Ind. 306. This premise was upheld by the Supreme Court of the United States in the case: John Bad Elk v. U.S., 177 U.S. 529. The Court stated: “Where the officer is killed in the course of the disorder which naturally accompanies an attempted arrest that is resisted, the law looks with very different eyes upon the transaction, when the officer had the right to make the arrest, from what it does if the officer had no right. What may be murder in the first case might be nothing more than manslaughter in the other, or the facts might show that no offense had been committed.”

“An arrest made with a defective warrant, or one issued without affidavit, or one that fails to allege a crime is within jurisdiction, and one who is being arrested, may resist arrest and break away. lf the arresting officer is killed by one who is so resisting, the killing will be no more than an involuntary manslaughter.” Housh v. People, 75 111. 491; reaffirmed and quoted in State v. Leach, 7 Conn. 452; State v. Gleason, 32 Kan. 245; Ballard v. State, 43 Ohio 349; State v Rousseau, 241 P. 2d 447; State v. Spaulding, 34 Minn. 3621.

“When a person, being without fault, is in a place where he has a right to be, is violently assaulted, he may, without retreating, repel by force, and if, in the reasonable exercise of his right of self defense, his assailant is killed, he is justified.” Runyan v. State, 57 Ind. 80; Miller v. State, 74 Ind. 1.

“These principles apply as well to an officer attempting to make an arrest, who abuses his authority and transcends the bounds thereof by the use of unnecessary force and violence, as they do to a private individual who unlawfully uses such force and violence.” Jones v. State, 26 Tex. App. I; Beaverts v. State, 4 Tex. App. 1 75; Skidmore v. State, 43 Tex. 93, 903.

“An illegal arrest is an assault and battery. The person so attempted to be restrained of his liberty has the same right to use force in defending himself as he would in repelling any other assault and battery.” (State v. Robinson, 145 ME. 77, 72 ATL. 260).

“Each person has the right to resist an unlawful arrest. In such a case, the person attempting the arrest stands in the position of a wrongdoer and may be resisted by the use of force, as in self- defense.” (State v. Mobley, 240 N.C. 476, 83 S.E. 2d 100).

“One may come to the aid of another being unlawfully arrested, just as he may where one is being assaulted, molested, raped or kidnapped. Thus it is not an offense to liberate one from the unlawful custody of an officer, even though he may have submitted to such custody, without resistance.” (Adams v. State, 121 Ga. 16, 48 S.E. 910).

“Story affirmed the right of self-defense by persons held illegally. In his own writings, he had admitted that ‘a situation could arise in which the checks-and-balances principle ceased to work and the various branches of government concurred in a gross usurpation.’ There would be no usual remedy by changing the law or passing an amendment to the Constitution, should the oppressed party be a minority. Story concluded, ‘If there be any remedy at all ... it is a remedy never provided for by human institutions.’ That was the ‘ultimate right of all human beings in extreme cases to resist oppression, and to apply force against ruinous injustice.’” (From Mutiny on the Amistad by Howard Jones, Oxford University Press, 1987, an account of the reading of the decision in the case by Justice Joseph Story of the Supreme Court."

Yes, you do have a right to resist an illegal arrest. The question you want to ask is; do you want to. As an officer, if I see an unlawful arrest being made, I am going to stop it. I have before. On the other hand, if I respond to a situation where an officer has called for backup, I have not seen what led up to the confrontation and therefore am not aware it is an unlawful arrest, I am going to assume you are illegally resisting a lawful arrest and will assist in the arrest. The thing to remember is, the officer is armed and usually with more than one type of weapon.
My advise would be, unless you are in fear for your life, take the beating and collect the money later. Law enforcement, like any other job, has its share of bad apples.

Utah Bob · 05-14-2010, 14:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by rubberneck

I am curious to know if hitting a suspect in the head with a baton is considered deadly force?

It can be. Training always stresses that the strike targets for a baton are shoulders and below. Arms ,Ribs, nerve masses, etc. Head and neck strikes can be fatal.

fng13 · 05-14-2010, 15:26

If a metal baton is striking me in the head especially when I was already on my knee's with my hands up I would definately feel in fear for my life.

add: apparantly this officer was charged with multiple counts of assault & battery, the "victim" was in his own drive way.

dr. mabuse · 05-14-2010, 20:40

Years ago, I recall this question of defending oneself against an LEO using force illegally was answered by Texas DPS Training Commander Albert Rodriguez.

He said take the beating and settle it in court, but if said illegal force used against you will cripple or kill you, "do what you have to do to survive the encounter". He was not implying that you sit there and hope it works out.

Would never want to be in that situation.

Surviving some of the few crooked LEO's goings-on in Tyler, Tx in the 70's ( as grossly misrepresented in the asinine movie "Rush" ) has taught me a few things.

No comment on video. IIRC, Some officers have been shot with pistols concealed in a baggy shirt by suspects on their hands and knees that refuse to go prone.

ktek01 · 05-14-2010, 22:42

Ive always found it easier to not have police officers wanting to beat me in the first place. I usually start by pulling over as soon as I see lights behind me, instead of trying to make it the last few blocks to my house, or trying to make it to the front door while the officer already has his weapon drawn. That never ends well.

This article had more details

http://www.chicagobreakingnews.com/2...-motorist.html

**The Reaper** · 05-15-2010, 00:00

Physically resisting arrest up through use of impact weapons ranks right up there with repelling a wrongful home invasion by LEOs.

You might be right, but not live long enough to enjoy it.

TR