Questions on FID in relation to SF...hear me out.

[newbie]

So, as I try to recover from some nagging injuries, I find myself reading more and more about basically everything pertaining to SF. And although certain discussions have been beaten to death about standards, Future of SF etc...I wanted to ask a rather different question to any QPs out there willing to answer.

SF has the highest optempo around, and seem to be deployed almost everywhere all the time. So much so that the q course produces 700-800 graduates a year (about right?). Just to keep up with attrition and demand in the groups, and there are some seasoned QPs on this board saying standards are dropping. Point is, there are a lot of SF soldiers, doing a lot of things, in a lot of places.

Do you think that the FID missions that are commonly given to the Groups are worthy of your skills and talent...or could be done by a more conventional unit? My point is, (just for the sake of knowledge) should SF be more focussed on upping its standards, lowering it's numbers and concentrating on UW rather than FID? Kind of like MARSOC creating 2 different units MSOG and MSOAG I am WAAYY out of my lane here, and this thread will probably get torn apart, but just curious what the SF attitude is to average FID missions?

I ask because I, by chance, spent some time on a Jungle training course in South America with a National Guard ODA doing some FID work in country xxxx (PM me for details), because I have an interest in SF I grilled those guys for info, they were awesome, incredibly professional, and the 18D's were seriously talented, (helped them stitch some guys up after an accident with a machete). They were motivating as all hell to be around for an aspiring 18x'er, but I couldnt help but think that some of the stuff they were doing in that country was not beneath them... but they were obviously frustrated, you could tell by the way they joked about it. They spent alot of time doing tourist stuff and Apparently, country xxxxx's armed forces were terrible to train and work with, and just getting basic marksmanship skills was a serious problem. Though the Medcaps they preformed in some remote villages were very cool, and did alot to create allies with the local population im sure. HOwever, Cant such a FID mission be handled by a more conventional army training unit? Im sure that the ODA there was doing alot more than just training the locals in marksmanship, but at the same time, should there be a less specialized, dedicated FID unit working under SF, couldnt this shorten deployments, increase training/ family time and thus allow for greater retention and an increase in quality and standards....basically, why isnt there an UW/FID command spanning the armed forces? Just saying, it makes a hell of alot of sense, even to my inexperienced, know nothing self. ...Im ready to get beaten down now. I apologize if I am seriously out of bounds, but am simply interested in the conversation this might create. It seems logical to me that only high priority FID missions should go to SF. Looking forward to my destruction. Oh man...kinda wish I hadnt asked this.

[The Reaper]

What mission(s) do you think SF guys should be doing?

This team told you that they thought FID was "a BS assignment"?

TR

[newbie]

TR. i just re-read and edited that. They NEVER said that at any point, and I would never think it was BS. I apologize for not having the SA to correct that before initially posting it. And I would never pretend to even know what the SF should be doing. Just after reading many threads on this forum...it seems that there are a lot of issues with optempo, and filling slots, declining standards etc...So i was wondering if FID was given levels of importance, so that SF is only used in the most important cases...just brainstorming. In all honesty... probably should have just kept my big mouth shut. Curiosity killed the cat etc...

[Green Light]

I was in 7th Group for 9 years in the 1980s to early 90s. Our stock in trade was FID. AAMOF, no one did it better than we did.

Don't think of it as a mission, but as a manifestation of UW along the continuum of warfare (difficult to illustrate here):

On the low end of the continuum, you have peacetime competition. We send ODAs to foreign countries to show the flag, make nation-to-nation contact, improve their training, and to build relationships of trust. This is FID and it continues through the continuum through low intensity all the way through mid-intensity conflict.

At the other end is high intensity conflict. For SF, this gets into guerrilla warfare. What's the difference between FID and GW? Usually, in FID we are invited in by the host government, in GW we go in and subvert the government.

This is a huge over-simplification but it makes the point. The skills for FID carry over for GW - the difference is you're univited. I enjoyed the challenge of the mission. It was never "safe" and there were always bad-guys. We operated in Bolivia, Peru, Honduras, El Salavdor, and others. We lost guys and had WIAs in these low intensity conflict missions as well and the mid-intensity. We never thought that we were wasting our time. We captured drug kingpins and interdicted weapons. We trained up the Honduran army while the Nicaraguans were massing on the border just kilometers away. We ran into "G's" and kept El Sal Nicaragua from spilling into other Central American countries.

I think we did pretty well. We took what the previous SF generations gave us, learned hard-won lessons and passed them onto the next generation. These were used in Afghanistan and Iraq. Those guys there will learn more and pass them on to the next.

BS mission? Nah.

[x SF med]

...to train, advise, organize and assist indigenous forces in their fights against oppressive governments...

Is there something unclear there?

[newbie]

You all are of course...absolutely correct. And I know you dont need me to say that. i have an unbelievable amount of respect for the work that you and all our troops do/ have done on behalf of our nation. I wasnt intending to imply that the work was "BS" in any way...it came out wrong. I was being a little too relaxed with my wording. however, I was just wondering if since I constantly hear about the need for more SF soldiers, and the fact that 18x guys are only good to go 1/3 rd of the time (referring to statements made by QPs on a previous thread here). doesnt it make sense to lessen the burden on SF by only using them where for instance, advanced skills training is needed. Just wondering, if that is what already occurs...Ill fade into the shadows and not post again for some time.

[head]

1. They ask for us by name. They know what "Green Berets" can do and our history - it is seen as an honor to them. ..And to us as well - as we usually will be working with the best soldiers that country has to offer. If you tell them a squad from the USCJFFIDD, or whatever is going to train them... doesn't carry the same weight.

2. There are no BS FID assignments - at least not in the very important opinion of the host nation. These missions come down from the Starfleet level and we may not have a full understanding of the diplomatic ramifications, but there are reasons why we are in some countries and not others.

3. When you are brought in to conduct a FID mission, you are ambassadors representing the Regiment, the Army, and the government of the United States. You will be meeting with the leaders of that country's military and government. Who would you rather have - "Quiet Professionals" or Pvt Joe Snuffy?

[head]

Originally Posted by newbie

I was just wondering if since I constantly hear about the need for more SF soldiers, and the fact that 18x guys are only good to go 1/3 rd of the time (referring to statements made by QPs on a previous thread here). doesnt it make sense to lessen the burden on SF by only using them where for instance, advanced skills training is needed. Just wondering, if that is what already occurs....

Damn, I'm in SF and I don't constantly hear about the need for more of us. As far as 18X's being good only 1/3rd of the time... sounds about right - I'm usually only good between noon and dinner... sometimes I catch a second wind though - but what you say is a little misleading unless you factor in that the 1/3rd is the only time we aren't racked out.
Every country you go to wants advanced skills... We usually have to reel them back. I'd love to teach my nuggs ninja flips and how to dodge bullets like in the matrix... but they need to learn how to shoot first.
You also aren't familiar with the amount of FID-like missions the rest of the military is conducting.. ever heard of the State Partnership Program? Each state has a relationship with a country around the world, sends their National Guard there for joint training exercises. Just an example.

[newbie]

As always with this stuff, Im learning, and I appreciate you all humoring me while I make some Blunders trying to understand the big picture.

"Who would you rather have - "Quiet Professionals" or Pvt Joe Snuffy?"

ha, seriously good point. I had thought of that, but simultaneously "thought" my way into a corner with my question.
also, the 1 out of 3 18x thing I got from a statement by a QP on another thread. I certainly dont know enough to make such a statement. Sorry to waste time with this. Thanks for the info.

[Richard]

Watch SFC Adams in action -

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/vide...an.johndmchugh

Review the concept/purposes of FID (we used to call it IDAD when we were doing it) and ponder how effective this guy might be in such a role.

And so it goes...

Richard's $.02

[bluebb]

Mid 90s, Uzbekistan wants to work with the US military. 1 ODA goes in, couple jumps, a combat medic course, some sight seeing, some mountain climbing. A good time was had by all and the Uzbek Captian we work with gets promoted to Major at the closing ceramonies. 6 months later ODA 1 and a sister ODA go in and train some more. A couple of more deployments and we are taking them to JRTC. The 82nd is invited to train. 9/11/01 Uzbekistan jumps on the bandwagon and we got airbases right next door to Afghanistan.
FID yeah its what we do.

Blue

[AndyBear]

Richard;

Just watched the video and I have to say that IMHO that is a sad SFC there. And some wonder why they don't respect the regular troops there. I honestly don't think that every conventional soldier displays that level of ignorant belittlement at host nations, but it makes you wonder.

Man, I loved FID missions!

They were the polar opposite of UW. All classes, regardless of mission were the same, (Place a Mine, Assemble a M16, Conduct a Leaders Recon, etc.) With FID, we were invited by the host nation, with UW, we were not.

I'll take living in the Thai Palace over a Spider Hole / Hide Site any day.

I guess my time training US Conventional troops doesn't count either as being cool, no, take that back, it was an honor to teach and train our own US troops as much as any other fighting force in the world.

I'll stand with my brothers!

Wet Dog

[Utah Bob]

Originally Posted by Richard

Watch SFC Adams in action -

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/vide...an.johndmchugh

Review the concept/purposes of FID (we used to call it IDAD when we were doing it) and ponder how effective this guy might be in such a role.

And so it goes...

Richard's $.02

The vilage elder is a prettyt sharp guy.
The SFC...not so much. Unprepared and ill trained to deal with locals and frustrated by the situation.
The Translator is useless.
This video illustrates the difference in training, mindset and mission between SF and conventional troops.
FID ain't for amateurs.

[The Reaper]

This might be worth looking at....

TR

Effective Use of FID: Expands SF Influence

by Captain Stephen C. Flanagan

During the past six years of combat rotations to Iraq, United States Army Special Forces have refined their lines of operation, or LOOs, to meet the ever-evolving challenges presented on the battlefield of counterinsurgency, or COIN.

The LOOs directed by combined joint special-operations task forces, or CJSOTFs, in Iraq and Afghanistan have varied greatly over time and have included: targeting enemy networks, conducting tribal engagements, conducting information and psychological operations, conducting combined lethal operations and developing networks of influence. However, one LOO that has remained the constant emphasis for the 10th SF Group in shaping the battlefield in Operation Iraqi Freedom is the conduct of foreign internal defense, or FID.

Joint Publication 1-02 defines FID as “participation by civilian and military agencies of a government in any of the action programs taken by another government or other designated organization to free and protect its society from subversion, lawlessness and insurgency.” The 10th SF Group has prioritized FID, emphasizing military training and combat-advising, to improve the capabilities of Iraqi Security Forces, or ISF, and ultimately to protect Iraqi society from insurgency. During OIF V and VI, SF Operational Detachment-Alpha 0324 learned that effective FID not only led to improved employment of ISF but also enabled the ODA to develop strong networks of influence and effectively accomplish the desired effects along their assigned LOOs.

Based in Kirkuk during OIF V, ODA 0324 spent the first half of its deployment conducting FID training with 84 Kurdish soldiers of the 4th Iraqi Army Intelligence-Surveillance-Reconnaissance Company.

In July 2007, the ODA conducted training in the military decision-making process, or MDMP, reassessing how to more effectively shape the operational environment.

The ODA found that multiple friendly elements redundantly focused on insurgents in the Kirkuk City area, collected intelligence from the same sources and partnered with the same Iraqi elements.

Meanwhile, the detachment’s intelligence preparation of the battlefield indicated that the greatest threat had shifted to an area outside of Kirkuk City: Diyala Province was teeming with violence between al-Qaeda in Iraq, or AQI, and Jaysh al-Mehdi, or JAM.1 Intelligence indicated the Hamrin Mountains, running along the Salah ad-Din/Kirkuk provincial boundary, provided an unimpeded supply route into Diyala for AQI.2 The key AQI node at the northern end of that supply line was the Zaab Triangle, formed by the towns of Bayji, Hawijah and Sharqat, with Zaab Village at its center.

There were virtually no coalition forces, or CF, and few ISF forces in the triangle because it was on the seam between three CF brigades and four provinces: Ninewah, Kirkuk, Irbil and Salah ad-Din. AQI firmly controlled most of the Zaab Triangle. The Hamrin Mountains essentially formed an AQI “supply snake” into Diyala Province, with the Zaab Triangle at its head. The ODA’s MDMP concluded that the best way to attack the snake was to cut off its head. >Top <blockedhttp://www.soc.mil/swcs/swmag/Page1.htm>

In August 2007, therefore, ODA 0324 constructed a combat outpost in the heart of the Zaab Triangle, co-located with the largely AQI-corrupted 18th Strategic Infrastructure Battalion, or SIB. The ODA established close ties with the commander of the 18th SIB, mitigated his corruption, and initiated intensive FID training with his best platoons. The ODA advised NCOs from the 4th Iraqi Army ISR Company who were training platoons of the 18th SIB Scout and Quick Reaction Force, or QRF. This was a noteworthy accomplishment, persuading the Shiite Kurdish soldiers of the 4th IA to train with and later conduct missions alongside the Sunni soldiers of the 18th SIB. The FID training promoted a healthy competition between the Iraqi units to be the best ISF direct-action force in the area, demonstrating a vast expansion of the ODA’s influence.

The QRF platoon leader soon introduced the ODA commander to a retired major general of the Iraqi police. The general commanded the loyalties of the dominant tribe in the area. The timing of the meeting was crucial. AQI had recently killed a tribal member because it believed he had cooperated with U.S. forces. AQI had established the Islamic State of Iraq, or ISI, implementing strict, radical Sunni Sharia law, and it maintained dominance in the general area.

AQI regularly distributed ISI newsletters full of propaganda against the government of Iraq, or GOI, and the U.S. government, and it corrupted local leaders of the ISF and government. AQI conducted grisly executions for minor infractions of the Sharia law, including beheadings in the center of towns. Through those coercive tactics, AQI gained the ability to collect local taxes and command control of the area. However, with the execution of the tribesman and the arrival of ODA 0324 to the area, that was all about to change.

The ODA developed a close relationship with the general and the area tribal leaders, who previously had been wary of CF, ISF and the GOI. The ODA fostered the development of a tribal sahawa, or “awakening,” against AQI, in the form of a network of concerned local citizens. The sahawa organization slowly began providing the ODA with atmospherics and intelligence. With that intelligence, the ODA began combat-advising its counterparts in the 4th IA, ISR and 18th SIB to conduct direct-action raids against AQI facilitators and weapons caches.

As the ODA and FID partners degraded AQI control of the area, the sahawa grew in its strength, willingness and ability to provide intelligence. Local ISF also began cooperating more with the ODA and even asserting itself to enforce the GOI rule of law. The regional police chief began coming to sahawa meetings and cooperating fully with the ODA. The commander of the 18th SIB also grew less corrupt and began to employ his line companies in ODA-advised clearing operations against AQI.

On Sept. 17, 2007, the ODA and the 18th SIB Scout Platoon were en route to recover a cache when the combined force was caught in a two-sided ambush in a tight alley in the AQI stronghold of Hugna. All the FID training paid off — the SIB Scouts responded professionally.

The combined element returned fire, pushed beyond the kill zone and quickly began clearing back through that portion of the village. The ODA synchronized maneuver of the combined assault force, the Humvee-based support-by-fire elements, close air support from the 2-6 Cavalry, and a company-sized QRF provided by the 18th SIB and the 5-82 Field Artillery Battalion.

The action resulted in no friendly casualties, 14 detained AQI operatives and one enemy killed. The dead man, Baha Turki Abd Shabib, had been on the ODA’s high-value target, or HVT, list. He was the AQI leader of the Hugna area and had been linked to the deaths of more than 60 innocent Iraqis, including the notorious beheading of an Iraqi soldier. Shabib had been responsible for manufacturing IEDs and directing numerous IED attacks against CF and ISF.3 The operation was an ISF victory and resulted in the degradation of AQI in the Hugna area.

Also in September 2007, the ODA received a tip from a sahawa contact about a regional AQI leader in Old Zaab Village. The ODA and the 18th SIB QRF Platoon conducted a daylight time-sensitive raid and arrested Sattam Hamid Khalif, the area AQI leader, former Baath Party leader and 3/25 BCT HVT, who had been the primary target of nearly a dozen CF-led raids since 2003.4 The celebration in the streets over his capture lasted for the next several days.

Sattam’s capture was a huge psychological blow to area AQI. In just three months, the ODA had trained the formerly stagnant 18th SIB and advised them as they performed 32 successful direct-action operations, captured or killed 43 AQI operatives and recovered seven caches. These operations demoralized the AQI in the Zaab Triangle and asserted the ODA-advised ISF as the authority of the area. >Top <blockedhttp://www.soc.mil/swcs/swmag/Page1.htm>