Blood Doping in SF

jwfb12 · 03-21-2010, 10:25

First off I hope this question is in the correct area, I wasn't sure of where to post this.

After searching on both this forum and the internet, I couldn't find sufficient information, so I hope that calls for an ample reason to post.

I was wondering about the usage of blood doping in the military. Of what information I could gather I found it was used in the SF in 1993, and may have started as early as 1987. I was looking for perhaps a more professional view on the matter via the men on this board, or something along those lines. It seems like a very interesting procedure to create a "super soldier" and I could definitely see the benefits of having a group of already elite warriors with an extra punch that could last for weeks.

In all honesty, I would've been content to stay as an unregistered user of this board and read all the information on the surface of the forums, but I wanted access to the search option. And when that didn't give me much, I felt this would be a good new topic for others to voice in on.

Thank you

**The Reaper** · 03-21-2010, 12:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by jwfb12

First off I hope this question is in the correct area, I wasn't sure of where to post this.

After searching on both this forum and the internet, I couldn't find sufficient information, so I hope that calls for an ample reason to post.

I was wondering about the usage of blood doping in the military. Of what information I could gather I found it was used in the SF in 1993, and may have started as early as 1987. I was looking for perhaps a more professional view on the matter via the men on this board, or something along those lines. It seems like a very interesting procedure to create a "super soldier" and I could definitely see the benefits of having a group of already elite warriors with an extra punch that could last for weeks.

In all honesty, I would've been content to stay as an unregistered user of this board and read all the information on the surface of the forums, but I wanted access to the search option. And when that didn't give me much, I felt this would be a good new topic for others to voice in on.

Thank you

Never saw any of it, doesn't make sense for SF.

Where did you get your info?

TR

jwfb12 · 03-21-2010, 12:22

I've found various magazine and journal articles online on the topic, also it is mentioned on Wikipedia, not that that could be relied on heavily.

That's mainly why I chose to bring the topic up here, it is only mentioned briefly in other places. I can understand too that it is probably a very, very minor chunk of SF history and therefore it is not a topic on which someone would have a lot of expertise. Still, I find it rather interesting and intriguing.

SF_BHT · 03-21-2010, 12:32

Like TR said never heard of it and I like him have been around a while.

I see no value in it for us.

Wikipedia is full of a LOT OF FICTION and is not a ref I would never use.

Post links to the magazines or other ref to support your reason for this thread. We can then tell you if it is Bull or might have a little credibility.

As far as I am concerned it is fiction as I served during these times and never heard of it.

Richard · 03-21-2010, 12:48

Quote:

Like TR said never heard of it and I like him have been around a while.

Ditto.

Richard

**The Reaper** · 03-21-2010, 12:58

I see little reason to start unsubstantiated rumors like this here.

If you have a credible source, post it. What various magazine and journal articles online?

TR

koz · 03-21-2010, 13:30

Seems like it was a test not an overall directive of USSFC -

http://www.dtic.mil/cgi-bin/GetTRDoc...c=GetTRDoc.pdf
Look at page 4 under Methods - Subjects. It says "16 healthy young Caucasian men who were members of two A teams of the 10th Special Forces Group at Ft. Devens, Ayer, MA severed as volunteers..."

http://www.stormingmedia.us/99/9959/A995961.html

We measured the physical exercise capabilities of U.S. Army Special Forces soldiers (male) and determined the subsequent ergogenic influence of autologous blood reinfusion. Twelve subjects (Ss) completed maximal exercise treadmill testing in a comfortable (T sub a=20 C, T sub dp = 9 C) environment. Six Ss were later transfused with a 600 ml autologous red blood cell (50% Hct) NaCl glucose-phosphate solution and completed identical maximal exercise tests 3 and 10-days post-transfusion. Pre-transfusion, the 12 Ss had a maximal oxygen uptake (VO2 max) of 4.36 + or - 0.56 1/min and 55 + or - 4 ml/kg/min with a heart rate of 188 + or - 10 b/min and ventilatory equivalent for oxygen of 37 + or - 3. For the 6 reinfused Ss, hemoglobin and red cell volume (RCV) increased 10% (P<0.05) and 11% (P<0.05), respectively, post-transfusion. Reinfusion increased (P<0.05) VO2 max from 4.28 + or - 0.22 1/min (54 + or - 5 ml/kg/min) to 4.75 + or - 0.42 1/min (60 + or - ml/kg/min) and 4.63+ or -0.21 1/min (59 + or - 6 ml/kg/min) at 3 and 10 days post-transfusion, respectively. No significant relationship was found between the individual change in RCV and VO2 max values pre- to post-transfusion. We conclude that Special Forces soldiers have high levels of aerobic fitness that can be further increased by blood reinfusion for at least 10 days.

**The Reaper** · 03-21-2010, 13:34

Good enough. It was a directed test then.

AFAIK, we have a lot off guys today at altitudes greater than 10th Group was working then, and we are not doing any blood doping that I have seen.

TR

jwfb12 · 03-21-2010, 14:27

I was not attempting to bring up "unsubstantiated rumors," only trying to see if anyone had any more information on a relatively unheard of topic.

Stras · 03-21-2010, 15:00

Yes it happened. at the time 10th SFG(A) was at Ft Devens.

I wasn't involved in the testing, but know some of the "volunteers" that got stuck with it. literally.

This was one of the Natick tests that never materialized and died from an overdose of the "good idea fairy" dust.

This was not the test to volunteer for. They had a certain way to take your core temperature, and the device was larger than Doc Pugh's finger (those of you old 10th SFG(A) vets recall in horror the size of his finger on the rectal exams for your physicals).

Several of the Natick tests have resulted in great stuff for the military. Blood Doping wasn't one of them.

Green Light · 03-21-2010, 17:48

Wasn't that known as "Trojan Warrior"?

Stras · 03-21-2010, 19:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Green Light

Wasn't that known as "Trojan Warrior"?

It could have been. It happened while I was in 1-10 and the teams were from 2/10 or 3/10 before they left Devens.

We've called a bunch of things Trojan Warrior over the years. Kinda like how FLINTLOCK used to be a European exercise...

MVP · 04-14-2010, 13:17

There was a lot of crazy stuff going on at Devens when Tricky Dick Potter was the Gp CO. We had the semi-annual Trojan test, the personal enhancement things like blood doping and the team that was pulled for special training by a martial arts guy, and the constant flow of new equipment. I think the personal training stuff was lumped under the "Jedi" program. GoreTex was one of the things that big Army got as a result of 10th SciFi Gp's work. At one point some guys were issued Goretex socks for trial. I remember the monthly pep-talks Dick used to give the Gp where he often referred to his "talks with Jesus" and reminded us "we ain't making corn flakes". Great days to be sure, Dick took the Cold War real serious and was very concerned with taking care of boys that might have to go into Eastern Europe with little hope of exfiltration.

At Toelz we had a surgeon (Moloff aka Mengeloff) circa 84/85 with his own ideas, he suggested a "Tuna diet" to help lighten our rucksacks. Daily food intake was 6.5oz of tuna per day, no carbs, no calories, just tuna, coffee, tea, or water, no sugar no creamer. Two teams attempted the diet - dismal failure. Did prompt a few gags in the Bn; there was the little jingle "Ask any A-Team you happen to see, what's the best..." and of course my team being referred to as the "Puss n Boots" Team.

There is a book called The Warrior's Edge that chronicles some of this, perhaps one of the Jedi guys can add more information if they are monitoring this site.

MVP

CSB · 04-14-2010, 14:28

7th Special Forces Group soldiers were test articles for several projects that I recall from the 1970':

- Set up commo for what was then the world's largest non-nuclear explosion, in New Mexico, to test blast effects.

- Given a folding ladder, a woolen blanket, and a aluminium pole, tested penetration times for one complete A Team over certain standard barbed wire fencing schemes.

Blitzzz (RIP) · 04-14-2010, 20:42

I was in Tenth then and the doping was done at Nadic labs. It wasn't done for altitude but for the SITGA missions.
My team was the "control" team for the trojan warrior team training. Another team was selected as their teams didn't progress as they wished.. LOL.