07-26-2004, 12:22
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#1
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Quiet Professional
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: LA
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The Loop
Ken Good Article
Wanna discuss Looping?
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Somewhere a True Believer is training to kill you. He is training with minimal food or water, in austere conditions, training day and night. The only thing clean on him is his weapon and he made his web gear. He doesn't worry about what workout to do - his ruck weighs what it weighs, his runs end when the enemy stops chasing him. This True Believer is not concerned about 'how hard it is;' he knows either he wins or dies. He doesn't go home at 17:00, he is home.
He knows only The Cause.
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NousDefionsDoc is offline
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07-26-2004, 12:29
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#2
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Guerrilla
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ooda
I'm game.
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JGarcia is offline
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07-26-2004, 12:50
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#3
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Quiet Professional
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Ok, simple or complicated and why?
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Somewhere a True Believer is training to kill you. He is training with minimal food or water, in austere conditions, training day and night. The only thing clean on him is his weapon and he made his web gear. He doesn't worry about what workout to do - his ruck weighs what it weighs, his runs end when the enemy stops chasing him. This True Believer is not concerned about 'how hard it is;' he knows either he wins or dies. He doesn't go home at 17:00, he is home.
He knows only The Cause.
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NousDefionsDoc is offline
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07-26-2004, 12:56
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#4
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Quiet Professional
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Next question - Did Boyd's theories cause an RMA?
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Somewhere a True Believer is training to kill you. He is training with minimal food or water, in austere conditions, training day and night. The only thing clean on him is his weapon and he made his web gear. He doesn't worry about what workout to do - his ruck weighs what it weighs, his runs end when the enemy stops chasing him. This True Believer is not concerned about 'how hard it is;' he knows either he wins or dies. He doesn't go home at 17:00, he is home.
He knows only The Cause.
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NousDefionsDoc is offline
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07-26-2004, 12:59
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#5
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Guerrilla
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Complicated.
I think that its only complicated when you are new to it. But for it to be as useful as it was intended to be, one should make every effort to master the use of the loop, in all its intricacies. Its like driving a manual transmission the first time. Takes a bit of fumbling at first. But I think once you have developed a feel for it, it becomes second nature. At least thats how I interpret what I have read.
Which brings me to the point that I have never applied it to the real world yet. Still trying to think of ways to integrate the loop with 7-8 and MOUT. Any suggestion for an infantry squad leader?
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JGarcia is offline
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07-26-2004, 13:00
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#6
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Guerrilla
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MTETC
In what ways do you think MTET-C are applicable to OODA? Im only just a national guard infantry squad leader. So bear with me. MTET-C is a variation of the original army METT-TC that some of our trainers with the 91st suggested that we use instead.
Can you explain RMA? If you're asking about what sort of impact Boyd had on modern military thinking and doctrine. I would say that, from what I have read, and that is limited, he appears to have had a huge impact. Marine Corps amphibious warfare doctrine is based on his theories. Gulf War I, Cheney consulted Boyd at length before the initial invasion. He is quoted as saying "I can't let norm do this high diddle up the middle plan." That language the SecDef used was Boyd's.
During a press conference in Gulf War I BG Richard Niel said, "We got inside his decision cycle" when asked for the reason Iraqi troops were surrendering by the thousands.
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Last edited by JGarcia; 07-26-2004 at 13:28.
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JGarcia is offline
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07-26-2004, 13:31
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#7
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Area Commander
Join Date: Feb 2004
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Quote:
Originally posted by NousDefionsDoc
Ok, simple or complicated and why?
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Both. 
In all seriousness I think it is both simple and complicated.
Its complicated for the first timer. B/C it is the first time they are understanding (in steps) how their mind works when the fit hits the shan.
Simple for the seasoned individual who has been working with it for awhile b/c they understand the steps the mind is making. In fully understanding what or better yet how there mind is working they are more effective in applying techniques.
Now correct me if I'm wrong: But isn't the OODA Loop designed to help us combat tunnel vision. Which will give us a better tactical advantage in a fight.
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Smokin Joe is offline
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07-26-2004, 14:02
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#8
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Among other things.
RMA - Revolution in Military Affairs. UYou'll have to research that on your own, I'm not writing all that stuff again.
MTET-C - what are the letters?
What do you guys think are the land mines with the Loop?
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Somewhere a True Believer is training to kill you. He is training with minimal food or water, in austere conditions, training day and night. The only thing clean on him is his weapon and he made his web gear. He doesn't worry about what workout to do - his ruck weighs what it weighs, his runs end when the enemy stops chasing him. This True Believer is not concerned about 'how hard it is;' he knows either he wins or dies. He doesn't go home at 17:00, he is home.
He knows only The Cause.
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NousDefionsDoc is offline
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07-26-2004, 14:12
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#9
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Deception plans, bad assumptions, decentralized execution and an enemy who knows what you are doing, and is using the system against you.
TR
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"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming; but who does actually strive to do the deeds; who knows great enthusiasms, the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat." - President Theodore Roosevelt, 1910
De Oppresso Liber 01/20/2025
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The Reaper is offline
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07-26-2004, 14:38
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#10
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Quote:
Originally posted by The Reaper
Deception plans, bad assumptions, decentralized execution and an enemy who knows what you are doing, and is using the system against you.
TR
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Mmm, sounds eerily familiar.
Not being subjective in evaluating your own orientation would be a big one for me. As well as imposing your orientation on your view of the enemy's.
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Somewhere a True Believer is training to kill you. He is training with minimal food or water, in austere conditions, training day and night. The only thing clean on him is his weapon and he made his web gear. He doesn't worry about what workout to do - his ruck weighs what it weighs, his runs end when the enemy stops chasing him. This True Believer is not concerned about 'how hard it is;' he knows either he wins or dies. He doesn't go home at 17:00, he is home.
He knows only The Cause.
Still want to quit?
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NousDefionsDoc is offline
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07-26-2004, 17:37
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#11
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Guerrilla
Join Date: Feb 2004
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Land mines
TR-
Can you elaborate as to how you see the deception plans as a landmine? I imagine that you are saying the time and effrots expended to conduct deception operations could be problematic.
Suppose deception were part of your SOP, budgeting your time and resources devoted to deception. I suppose though, that it all boils down to fingerspitzengefuhl, so that deception becomes natural, and the amount used is a quantity that the commander intuitively knows is sufficient. He develops a FEEL for it.
On bad assumptions. I think what you are speaking about is a generalization of a badly conducted analysis/synthesis process in the 'ORIENT' phase. The danger is that one will make bad assumptions with reference to the relationship between himself and his foe. Which is precisely what you want your adversary to do, if I am correct. I dont think I understand this area of his theory very well yet. But bear with me, I am trying to wrap my mind around this. Still have to think about this and read on it some more. But I think I am headed in the right direction.
NDD-
I want to say that I dont think boyd intended for you to concern yourself with the idea of imposing your orientation on your (imagined) view of the adversary's. I think he intended that you conduct your own unique 'ORIENT' phase, generate a hypothesis ('DECIDE') and test it 'ACT'.
Wouldnt this cause you to be the actor and not the reactor, making you the one setting the pace, not your adversary, and forcing him to keep pace with you. The inherant risk is always there.
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Last edited by JGarcia; 07-26-2004 at 17:46.
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07-26-2004, 17:49
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#12
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Guerrilla
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'ACT'
During the ACT phase, when you test your hypothesis, you will get environmental (battlefield) feedback (good or bad), that you incorporate into your observation phase, and then start anew.
Right?
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07-26-2004, 18:01
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#13
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Quiet Professional
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I am saying that if you fall for the enemy's deception plan, you are orienting, deciding and acting against a false threat, and if the deception plan was properly integrated, falling into his trap, putting him inside your OODA loop.
Assumptions? Some assumptions must be made in military planning. When I assume away enemy capabilities, or overassume the capabilities of my own, I am pulling the wool over my own eyes.
Let me assume that a small force is capable of conquering the enemy. I will assume that the HN will be grateful and compliant. I assume that the utilities will be functional, or require only minor repairs to restore. I assume that the enemy forces will surrender and will return to lawful employment upon release. I assume that the post-conflict military operations can be conducted with a minimal military force. I assume that the neighboring countries will control their borders with my target nation and control access. After these vastly over-optimistic assumptions, who is inside who's OODA loop?
TR
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"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming; but who does actually strive to do the deeds; who knows great enthusiasms, the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat." - President Theodore Roosevelt, 1910
De Oppresso Liber 01/20/2025
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The Reaper is offline
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07-26-2004, 18:52
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#14
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Quiet Professional
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"NDD-
I want to say that I dont think boyd intended for you to concern yourself with the idea of imposing your orientation on your (imagined) view of the adversary's. I think he intended that you conduct your own unique 'ORIENT' phase, generate a hypothesis ('DECIDE') and test it 'ACT'.
Wouldnt this cause you to be the actor and not the reactor, making you the one setting the pace, not your adversary, and forcing him to keep pace with you. The inherant risk is always there."
rubbish. gross over simplification! 
I am talking about before the engagement. Very simple example. If you are going to use a distraction device to disrupt his observe and orientation, you assume that your adversary will be distracted by said device. If he uses them as part of his arsenal as well, chances are he will not be distracted as he understands, on observing the device being employed, that it is a distraction. He looks away and at the same time moves. See what I mean?
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Somewhere a True Believer is training to kill you. He is training with minimal food or water, in austere conditions, training day and night. The only thing clean on him is his weapon and he made his web gear. He doesn't worry about what workout to do - his ruck weighs what it weighs, his runs end when the enemy stops chasing him. This True Believer is not concerned about 'how hard it is;' he knows either he wins or dies. He doesn't go home at 17:00, he is home.
He knows only The Cause.
Still want to quit?
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NousDefionsDoc is offline
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07-26-2004, 18:53
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#15
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Quote:
Originally posted by The Reaper
I am saying that if you fall for the enemy's deception plan, you are orienting, deciding and acting against a false threat, and if the deception plan was properly integrated, falling into his trap, putting him inside your OODA loop.
Assumptions? Some assumptions must be made in military planning. When I assume away enemy capabilities, or overassume the capabilities of my own, I am pulling the wool over my own eyes.
Let me assume that a small force is capable of conquering the enemy. I will assume that the HN will be grateful and compliant. I assume that the utilities will be functional, or require only minor repairs to restore. I assume that the enemy forces will surrender and will return to lawful employment upon release. I assume that the post-conflict military operations can be conducted with a minimal military force. I assume that the neighboring countries will control their borders with my target nation and control access. After these vastly over-optimistic assumptions, who is inside who's OODA loop?
TR
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Absolutely. Timely and relevant.
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Somewhere a True Believer is training to kill you. He is training with minimal food or water, in austere conditions, training day and night. The only thing clean on him is his weapon and he made his web gear. He doesn't worry about what workout to do - his ruck weighs what it weighs, his runs end when the enemy stops chasing him. This True Believer is not concerned about 'how hard it is;' he knows either he wins or dies. He doesn't go home at 17:00, he is home.
He knows only The Cause.
Still want to quit?
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