Go Back   Professional Soldiers ® > At Ease > General Discussions

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 02-02-2010, 09:31   #1
nmap
Area Commander
 
nmap's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: San Antonio, Texas
Posts: 2,760
What's a Degree Really Worth?

I found this interesting, especially as tuition rates continue to advance more quickly than do wage rates. As our nation continues to emphasize the value of education, I wonder what, exactly, we mean? When we advocate an educated population, do we gain much from someone with an undergraduate degree in math? How about someone with a degree in theater?

And, more pointedly - is it worth going deeply into debt in pursuit of such a degree?

LINK

A college education may not be worth as much as you think.

For years, higher education was touted as a safe path to professional and financial success. Easy money, in the form of student loans, flowed to help parents and students finance degrees, with the implication that in the long run, a bachelor's degree was a good bet. Graduates, it has long been argued, would be able to build solid careers that would earn them far more than their high-school educated counterparts.

iStock Photo The gap between pay for college graduates and high school graduates isn't as wide as has been reported.
.
The numbers appeared to back it up. In recent years, the nonprofit College Board touted the difference in lifetime earnings of college grads over high-school graduates at $800,000, a widely circulated figure. Other estimates topped $1 million.

But now, as tuition continues to skyrocket and many seeking to change careers are heading back to school, some researchers are questioning the methodology behind the high projections.

Most researchers agree that college graduates, even in rough economies, generally fare better than individuals with only high-school diplomas. But just how much better is where the math gets fuzzy.

The problem stems from the common source of the estimates, a 2002 Census Bureau report titled "The Big Payoff." The report said the average high-school graduate earns $25,900 a year, and the average college graduate earns $45,400, based on 1999 data. The difference between the two figures is $19,500; multiply it by 40 years, as the Census Bureau did, the result is $780,000.

"The idea was not to produce a definitive 'This is what you'll earn' number, but to try and give some measure of the relative value of education attainments," says Eric Newburger, a lead researcher at the Census and the paper's co-author. "It's not a statement about the future, it's a statement about today."

Mark Schneider, a vice president of the American Institutes for Research, a nonprofit research organization based in Washington, calls it "a million-dollar misunderstanding."

One problem he sees with the estimates: They don't take into account deductions from income taxes or breaks in employment. Nor do they factor in debt, particularly student debt loads, which have ballooned for both public and private colleges in recent years. In addition, the income data used for the Census estimates is from 1999, when total expenses for tuition and fees at the average four-year private college were $15,518 per year. For the 2009-10 school year, that number has risen to $26,273, and it continues to increase at a rate higher than inflation.

Dr. Schneider estimated the actual lifetime-earnings advantage for college graduates is a mere $279,893 in report he wrote last year. He included tuition payments and discounted earning streams, putting them into present value. He also used actual salary data for graduates 10 years after they completed their degrees to measure incomes. Even among graduates of top-tier institutions, the earnings came in well below the million-dollar mark, he says.

And just like any investment, there are risks—such as graduating into a deep economic downturn. That's what happened to Kelly Dunleavy, who graduated in 2007 from the University of California, Berkeley, with $60,000 in loans. She now works as a reporter for a small newspaper in the Bay Area and earns $34,000 a year. Her father is currently paying her $700 monthly loan payments. "It's harder than what I think I expected it to be," she says.

"Averages don't tell the whole story," says Lauren Asher, president of the Institute for College Access & Success, a nonprofit group based in Berkeley, Calif. She points out that incomes vary widely, especially based on majors. "The truth is that no one can predict for you exactly what you're gong to earn," she says.

And that includes the College Board, which recently said on its Web site: "Over a lifetime, the gap in earning potential between a high-school diploma and a bachelor of arts is more than $800,000. In other words, whatever sacrifices you and your child make for [a] college education in the short term are more than repaid in the long term."

The $800,000 number, it turns out, was pulled from a footnote of the College Board's 2007 "Education Pays" report that explained lifetime earnings. The report's author, Sandy Baum—an emeritus Skidmore College economics professor who didn't write the promotional text on the Web site—says that $450,000 is actually a more reasonable estimate of the difference in lifetime earnings, something she's said in interviews for more than a year.

Steve Talbott, a journalism professor at Cleveland State University, who is researching the cost of education and student loan debt , says he urged the College Board to take down the "misleading use" of the $800,000 number a year ago. Others have voiced their objections to the College Board figure via letters and blogs.

A College Board spokeswoman says it doesn't have a record of when the content was written and that "it's possible that during an update of the content the writer misinterpreted the data within the report." She also says the text represented old data and reflected "a different methodology." The $800,000 figure was removed from its Web site in December, once the group learned of the error, she says.
__________________
Carpe diem quam minimum credula postero

Acronym Key:

MOO: My Opinion Only
YMMV: Your Mileage May Vary
ETF: Exchange Traded Fund


Oil Chart

30 year Treasury Bond
nmap is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-02-2010, 10:17   #2
bandycpa
Guerrilla Chief
 
bandycpa's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: SW Virginia
Posts: 583
nmap,

Very interesting article. I wonder if any of these factors have anything to do with the shrinking spread between high school graduate earnings and college graduate earnings:

1) The increase in "non mainstream" degrees. As you noted earlier in your post, a degree in theater is not as practical as a degree in finance.

2) The rise of the minimum wage. Businesses can only pay so much for wages, and the increase of the minimum wage means that high school graduates are earning more by default...not because of any further degreed education.

3) Unrealistic expectations from graduates upon entering the workforce. When I graduated with my B.S. in Accountancy, the median nationwide salary was $40,000. My actual starting salary was much less than that. It improved as I rose through the ranks, and I was fortunate enough to branch out on my own. But, I expected a high salary right out of the gate, and didn't pay attention to what the market bore in my area. I believe a lot of other graduates do the same thing.



Bandy
__________________
“Critics are men who watch a battle from a high place then come down and shoot the survivors.”—Hemingway.
bandycpa is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 02-02-2010, 10:27   #3
CPTAUSRET
Gun Pilot
 
CPTAUSRET's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Iowa and New Mexico
Posts: 2,143
While I understand the intent of the article, I did not pursue a college degree based upon anticipated financial returns...

My wife who is an M.D., Ph.D., was not considering eventual monetary reimbursements during her numerous years of schooling. After teaching as an Eng Lit Prof for five years, she realized that helping people was what she really wanted to do, and attended Med school.

Condidering all those years in various post grad/post-doc pipelines, she may never recover financially.

But she is able to benefit the society she lives in! In some ways similar to the core membership of this website; you guys don't do it for the money...
__________________
E7-CW3-direct commission VN
B model gunship pilot 65-66 Soc Trang, Cobra Pilot 68-69-70 Can Tho Life member 101st Airborne Association
CPTAUSRET is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-02-2010, 12:04   #4
ksgbobo
Guerrilla
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Jacksonville Florida
Posts: 109
Quote:
Originally Posted by bandycpa View Post
nmap,

3) Unrealistic expectations from graduates upon entering the workforce. When I graduated with my B.S. in Accountancy, the median nationwide salary was $40,000. My actual starting salary was much less than that. It improved as I rose through the ranks, and I was fortunate enough to branch out on my own. But, I expected a high salary right out of the gate, and didn't pay attention to what the market bore in my area. I believe a lot of other graduates do the same thing.

Bandy
I agree with this. But it also depends what kind of company you work for as well. There is a difference between a professional degree and a normal degree ie history, english, political science and such. If you have an engineering degree, construction management degree or accounting, you will make more than someone who graduated with a history degree, ie myself.

I have a buddy who graduted with a construction management degree a semester before me, I graduated with history. He is making twice as much as me. Why? I think its the field of work he is in and what he does. Me, its the company I chose to work for, they start everyone off at the bottom and you work your way up. In the field I work in you have to start off at the bottom in order to understand everything and to be successful.

College is getting expensive, almost ridiculous. My wife went to hair school, $10k it cost her, my degree cost $30k. She does very well. I do not think a degree is worth what it is right when you graduate, but 5 to 10 years down the road, yes, it is worth it.

I am an avid believer of higher education and that it will bring you greater opportunities throughout your life, but alot of it has to do with yourself as well. Its how I was brought up and its what I believe.
__________________
Be a Leader...Not a Follower

We want great men who, when fortune frowns, will not be discouraged.
~Colonel Henry Knox

Last edited by ksgbobo; 02-02-2010 at 12:08.
ksgbobo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-02-2010, 12:10   #5
PedOncoDoc
Area Commander
 
PedOncoDoc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Northeast Utah
Posts: 1,712
Docs such as myself will typically put themselves $150k+ in debt to make $35k-$45k for the first 3-6 years after graduation. Primary care providers typically make $100k-$150k annually.
__________________
‎"The dignity of man is not shattered in a single blow, but slowly softened, bent, and eventually neutered. Men are seldom forced to act, but are constantly restrained from acting. Such power does not destroy outright, but prevents genuine existence. It does not tyrannize immediately, but it dampens, weakens, and ultimately suffocates, until the entire population is reduced to nothing better than a flock of timid, uninspired animals, of which the government is shepherd." - Alexis de Tocqueville
PedOncoDoc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-02-2010, 14:10   #6
Sacamuelas
JAWBREAKER
 
Sacamuelas's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Gulf coast
Posts: 1,906
Quote:
Originally Posted by PedOncoDoc View Post
Docs such as myself will typically put themselves $150k+ in debt to make $35k-$45k for the first 3-6 years after graduation. Primary care providers typically make $100k-$150k annually.
MD's pay their dues.... No doubt about it.

I have always believed education of any type is better than ignorance.

Last edited by Sacamuelas; 02-02-2010 at 17:03.
Sacamuelas is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-02-2010, 14:28   #7
Sigaba
Area Commander
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Southern California
Posts: 4,478
Quote:
Originally Posted by CPTAUSRET View Post
Entire post
For what my $0.02 are worth, I agree.

The skills I've acquired in the academic environment and continue to develop enable me to help people and organizations in ways that extend beyond my areas of expertise.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ksgbobo View Post
I agree with this. But it also depends what kind of company you work for as well. There is a difference between a professional degree and a normal degree ie history, english, political science and such. If you have an engineering degree, construction management degree or accounting, you will make more than someone who graduated with a history degree, ie myself.
Flashback to 1998.

"BUT I'M NOT BITTER," said the guy in graduate school when he found out how much an ex g/f with a B.S. in environmental engineering was making in her first job.
Sigaba is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-02-2010, 14:38   #8
Richard
Quiet Professional
 
Richard's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: NorCal
Posts: 15,370
1 degree = 17.77 mils.

Richard
__________________
“Sometimes the Bible in the hand of one man is worse than a whisky bottle in the hand of (another)… There are just some kind of men who – who’re so busy worrying about the next world they’ve never learned to live in this one, and you can look down the street and see the results.” - To Kill A Mockingbird (Atticus Finch)

“Almost any sect, cult, or religion will legislate its creed into law if it acquires the political power to do so.” - Robert Heinlein
Richard is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-02-2010, 14:49   #9
bandycpa
Guerrilla Chief
 
bandycpa's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: SW Virginia
Posts: 583
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard View Post
1 degree = 17.77 mils.

Richard
1 degree = .0175 radians

On a related note, we've went off on a *tangent* from the original discussion.


Bandy
__________________
“Critics are men who watch a battle from a high place then come down and shoot the survivors.”—Hemingway.
bandycpa is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 02-02-2010, 15:04   #10
Richard
Quiet Professional
 
Richard's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: NorCal
Posts: 15,370
Quote:
On a related note, we've went off on a *tangent* from the original discussion.
Upon 'deflection' - it offers one a whole new 'angle' for consideration.

Richard
__________________
“Sometimes the Bible in the hand of one man is worse than a whisky bottle in the hand of (another)… There are just some kind of men who – who’re so busy worrying about the next world they’ve never learned to live in this one, and you can look down the street and see the results.” - To Kill A Mockingbird (Atticus Finch)

“Almost any sect, cult, or religion will legislate its creed into law if it acquires the political power to do so.” - Robert Heinlein
Richard is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-02-2010, 15:33   #11
bandycpa
Guerrilla Chief
 
bandycpa's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: SW Virginia
Posts: 583
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard View Post
Upon 'deflection' - it offers one a whole new 'angle' for consideration.

Richard
That was 'acute'. You win.


Bandy
__________________
“Critics are men who watch a battle from a high place then come down and shoot the survivors.”—Hemingway.
bandycpa is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 02-02-2010, 15:44   #12
HisDisciple
Asset
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 41
I received a degree, but only help to join the military (I know I will get laughed to scorn on this)

I feel that my International Relations degree is totally worthless, I want to serve as an enlisted man and not serve as an officer. I have always asked myself, how can I lead if I have never done what this man has done?

Unfortunetly, I didn't do my research before I went to college, and didn't figure out the rudiments of the pipeline until my Jr. year.

I would have been better prepared to see what major classes and books are required for a degree and then go to the library and read those same books.
as I did with arabic, that they didn't teach at my university, there is no excuse for not being educated. Self Inititive.

I'm hoping someday it will be worth it, because I could have been serving with the Best by now.
__________________
"Is personal responsibility dead?"
-The Reaper

"I love hearing people talk about "thinking outside the box." It seems those who talk the most are those who cant manage to think inside the box, attempting to use it as a defense for poorly thought out ideas/decisions..."
-Surgicalcric

"Not with the blood of goats and calves, but with His own blood He entered the Most Holy Place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption."
-Hebrews 9:12
HisDisciple is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-02-2010, 16:13   #13
Richard
Quiet Professional
 
Richard's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: NorCal
Posts: 15,370
Quote:
That was 'acute'.
Well...sometimes I can be 'right'...but have been known to be rather 'obtuse' upon occasion.

Richard
__________________
“Sometimes the Bible in the hand of one man is worse than a whisky bottle in the hand of (another)… There are just some kind of men who – who’re so busy worrying about the next world they’ve never learned to live in this one, and you can look down the street and see the results.” - To Kill A Mockingbird (Atticus Finch)

“Almost any sect, cult, or religion will legislate its creed into law if it acquires the political power to do so.” - Robert Heinlein
Richard is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-02-2010, 16:35   #14
head
Quiet Professional
 
head's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Bay Area
Posts: 568
My degree got me SPC-4 pay on enlistment... I haven't used it for much else.
__________________
Every man has three characters: that which he shows, that which he has, and that which he thinks he has.
head is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-02-2010, 17:25   #15
Triman19
Asset
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Ohio
Posts: 41
Aristotle

"The educated differ from the uneducated as much as the living from the dead."
Triman19 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT -6. The time now is 21:17.



Copyright 2004-2022 by Professional Soldiers ®
Site Designed, Maintained, & Hosted by Hilliker Technologies