Afghan Men Struggle With Sexual Identity, Study Finds

[koz]

Is this the real reason that BHO is trying to repeal the "Don't ask don't tell" policy?

___________________________
Afghan Men Struggle With Sexual Identity, Study Finds

An unclassified study from a military research unit in southern Afghanistan details how homosexual behavior is unusually common among men in the large ethnic group known as Pashtuns -- though they seem to be in complete denial about it.

As if U.S. troops and diplomats didn't have enough to worry about in trying to understand Afghan culture, a new report suggests an entire region in the country is coping with a sexual identity crisis.

An unclassified study from a military research unit in southern Afghanistan details how homosexual behavior is unusually common among men in the large ethnic group known as Pashtuns -- though they seem to be in complete denial about it.

The study, obtained by Fox News, found that Pashtun men commonly have sex with other men, admire other men physically, have sexual relationships with boys and shun women both socially and sexually -- yet they completely reject the label of "homosexual." The research was conducted as part of a longstanding effort to better understand Afghan culture and improve Western interaction with the local people.

The research unit, which was attached to a Marine battalion in southern Afghanistan, acknowledged that the behavior of some Afghan men has left Western forces "frequently confused."

The report details the bizarre interactions a U.S. Army medic and her colleagues had with Afghan men in the southern province of Kandahar.

In one instance, a group of local male interpreters had contracted gonorrhea anally but refused to believe they could have contracted it sexually -- "because they were not homosexuals."

Apparently, according to the report, Pashtun men interpret the Islamic prohibition on homosexuality to mean they cannot "love" another man -- but that doesn't mean they can't use men for "sexual gratification."

The group of interpreters who had contracted gonorrhea joked in the camp that they actually got the disease by "mixing green and black tea." But since they refused to heed the medics' warnings, many of them re-contracted the disease after receiving treatment.

The U.S. army medic also told members of the research unit that she and her colleagues had to explain to a local man how to get his wife pregnant.

The report said: "When it was explained to him what was necessary, he reacted with disgust and asked, 'How could one feel desire to be with a woman, who God has made unclean, when one could be with a man, who is clean? Surely this must be wrong.'"

The Pashtun populations are concentrated in the southern and eastern parts of the country. The Human Terrain Team that conducted the research is part of a military effort to learn more about local populations.

The report also detailed a disturbing practice in which older "men of status" keep young boys on hand for sexual relationships. One of the country's favorite sayings, the report said, is "women are for children, boys are for pleasure."

The report concluded that the widespread homosexual behavior stems from several factors, including the "severe segregation" of women in the society and the "prohibitive" cost of marriage.

Though U.S. troops are commonly taught in training for Afghanistan that the "effeminate characteristics" of Pashtun men are "normal" and not an indicator of homosexuality, the report said U.S. forces should not "dismiss" the unique version of homosexuality that is actually practiced in the region "out of desire to avoid western discomfort."

Otherwise, the report said, Westerners could "risk failing to comprehend an essential social force underlying Pashtun culture."

[Dozer523]

ding, ding, ding! we have a winner. BS.

[Penn]

Assuming this article is based in fact, it implies that the entire male culture engages in, or condones homosexual behavior. I find it somewhat difficult to incorporate such a widespread cultural practice/ acceptance of this behavior in Pashtun culture. For it counters the cultural impressions instilled over two semesters of demanding course work. That such a defining intrinsic cultural behavior/ subject matter never surface during that exploration, not only confuses me, but leads me to question the possibility of a prejudicial viewpoint, or bias on the part of the good professor.

In that regard I have fwd the article to my Professor. His area of specialization is: “The Pashtun Culture”.

[craigepo]

"For it counters the cultural impressions instilled over two semesters of demanding course work. "

How much of that demanding course work consisted of living with Pashtuns?

[JJ_BPK]

Originally Posted by Penn

Assuming this article is based in fact, it implies that the entire male culture engages in, or condones homosexual behavior. I find it somewhat difficult to incorporate such a widespread cultural practice/ acceptance of this behavior in Pashtun culture. For it counters the cultural impressions instilled over two semesters of demanding course work. That such a defining intrinsic cultural behavior/ subject matter never surface during that exploration, not only confuses me, but leads me to question the possibility of a prejudicial viewpoint, or bias on the part of the good professor.

In that regard I have fwd the article to my Professor. His area of specialization is: “The Pashtun Culture”.

I have been reading this line of though for some time, in several other fora. In fact the 1st time it became obvious was a short movie clip produced by some Scandinavian EU SF types. The clip (maybe 7-8minutes) was a collage of short pieces created by the same unit. It covered their tur from the beginning to end. Around the middle, you could see they were being very productive in some hearts & minds effort and had some close-ups of the locals.

One of the close-up showed 3-4 frumpy old locals,, and one young boy (12-14 yo). The old goats were in ruff, worn, tattered outfits,, and the your boy was dressed in what I would call a DRESS,, fresh out of a shower, hair combed, and a small flower in his mouth. It also looked he had makeup on..

The implications were scary. I was waiting for some sort of explanation, but there was none. They showed the kid in several clips as if they wanted to say something..

[Penn]

Let’s be clear here; I am not defending a position. I am asking if this judgment of the culture is true. And further, I fwd the question to a subject matter expert.

[Penn]

The good Professors reply to this question :Professor, I hope this finds you well and enjoying another semester at I am hoping you can render an opinion on the attached article...as to its cultural truth.

His answer:It is kind of like the ancient Greek phenomenon. Yes, the Kandahar region is the source of a lot of jokes on this general theme, though it's (a) a practice that occurs in other areas and (b) not as universal (or universally approved) as it is made out to appear here. It's a power and status game more than anything else, and not really a 'sexual identity crisis' - it really has little to do with sexual orientation.

Which tells me he is very political with regards to this question.


That such a defining intrinsic cultural behavior/ subject matter never surface during that exploration, not only confuses me, but leads me to question the possibility of a prejudicial viewpoint, or bias on the part of the good professor..

[Team Sergeant]

Originally Posted by Penn

Let’s be clear here; I am not defending a position. I am asking if this judgment of the culture is true. And further, I fwd the question to a subjest matter expert.

It's true and it's not just the Afgan men.

Why do you think michael jackson took up residence in Bahrain & Dubai ?????

Originally Posted by Penn

The good Professors reply to this question :Professor, I hope this finds you well and enjoying another semester at I am hoping you can render an opinion on the attached article...as to its cultural truth.

His answer:It is kind of like the ancient Greek phenomenon. Yes, the Kandahar region is the source of a lot of jokes on this general theme, though it's (a) a practice that occurs in other areas and (b) not as universal (or universally approved) as it is made out to appear here. It's a power and status game more than anything else, and not really a 'sexual identity crisis' - it really has little to do with sexual orientation.

Which tells me he is very political with regards to this question.


That such a defining intrinsic cultural behavior/ subject matter never surface during that exploration, not only confuses me, but leads me to question the possibility of a prejudicial viewpoint, or bias on the part of the good professor..

Perhaps the good professor just cannot wrap his brain around such a culture, due to western bias? This professor is a cultural anthropologist?

If I were to continue along some of the lines I highlighted and reaching back to when dirt was new and I was in college the first time.. my minor was anthropology. (as it related to clothing in culture) The Greeks, depending on the city-states culture accepted homosexuality while serving compulsory military service. However post service it was not accepted and men were expected to marry and rear a family.

The green highlight mentions "power and status". If I take that line out of context, and consider what I read and saw in both the book/movie Kite Runner.
It is not about sex, rape never is about sex, it is about power. Dominance over those less powerful. I would assume (emphasis on assume) That in that particular culture, the way it has evolved This is an acceptable means of establishing dominance. To my western trained mind, it is a pretty disturbed society. However, taken into context, it apparently works for them. I think that someone has interpreted the Quran in a rather odd way to think that this thing is okay, however, it seems that one can take any religious text and twist it to suit ones goals and purposes.

Less evolved cutures, I have noticed, tend to go in one of two directions with regards to women. They will either put women on a pedestal as the 'givers of life' and it goes into a matriarchal society. OR... The opposite direction, where that fact that we are the givers of life, we are just to scary to deal with and anything associated with women becomes 'unclean.'. The diretion taken, is directly attributable the base religion.

With all that said, I find a lot about Islam and the things acceptable beyond distasteful on so many levels that it makes me throw up in my mouth.
AM

[Dozer523]

The notion that homosexuality is accepted and encouraged on a wide spread basis, in any culture, is absurd.
That it is tolerated, possibly. I have read reports that captured Soviet soldiers were raped as part of the torture preceding a gruesome death and I do not doubt it. But, homosexual rape isn't what this author is talking about. Male hand-holding is common and I've held the hand of Egyptian, Jordanian, and Afghan males in the course of doing business and I've never wondered what he was doing with the other hand. (BTW I've been "pecked on the cheek" by my countepart bro's too.)
As for "Man Love Thursday" nothing got my terp more pissed off then mentioning that. He'd never heard of it before he met Americans and it was quite clear that he believed it was a notion that had it's origin with Americans.

It is no more a Pashtun or Afghan cultural trait then it is an American trait. But, we have homosexuals in America -- so I've been told.


Add: I assume the researcher has never seen an Afghan male's reaction to picking up MAXXIM for the first time. (Penthouse is banned under GO 1A)

[Box]

...I find it amazing that we spent a truckload of taxpayer money so a researcher could divine the mysterious sexual nature of inhabitants of the middle east. The entire Human Terrain Team concept is a fucking scam and its inventor should be tarred and feathered.
These are the same "trained monkeys" that released a report explaining that corruption in Trashcanistan is a cultural problem that isnt going to go away any time soon.


Good work guys!

It happens more than one would expect and not only with Afghan men, but others from that area of the world. It is highly disturbing and very much overlooked and unmentioned. They do not exactly go out of their way to hide it, however most troops who never have the "opportunity" to live with them day and night for weeks at a time out on patrol, sleeping where you stop would ever get a glimpse of it. Those of us who had to live with the booger eating bastards know.

Their views on the matter were explained to me. It is absolutely condoned under certain very specific conditions, but it is never openly discussed, just overlooked. Under any other condition though, it is very much taboo, even criminal warranting execution in some cases.

It is a cultural quirk that is not as simple as "homosexual or not," so it is no wonder that outsiders do not understand, deny it is factual, etc. Do not expect to understand it. When you understand that there are people out there that just do shit you'll never understand, you will be a long way toward getting along in and around other cultures and not sticking out like a hard-on in a nudist colony as do most Americans.

I've commented on this particular subject several times elsewhere, mostly when I am pointing out the ridiculous and hypocritical nature of islam.

I am interested in hearing what this "subject matter expert" has to say. It's there. It's true. I'd like to hear an HONEST and "educated" spin on it.

[csquare]

I know one thing after reading this article, I will never mix green and black tea.

[Marina]

Most of the young men have probably never seen a whole female outside their immediate family - let alone a nekked one. Pashto tolerance of "homo-sex" is something like what happens in a male prison and the more inbred areas of the Appalachias, plus a large dollop of Islam. I can't think of anything more repressive.

The British wrote of effeminate Afghans in Kandahar 150 years ago. It's only gotten more flagrant and apparently more perverse. Some of it is tribal - power, dominance, etc. But most of it is simply their culture.

Who cares? Not me. The women of Kabul were fairly Westernized before the Taliban and will likely come back from the burka when it is safe to do so. The Pashto tribe, on the other hand, has barely made it out of the stone age.

[Sigaba]

I would like to know if this article is based upon the full report, the executive summary of the report, or both.

Originally Posted by Penn

<<SNIP>>Which tells me he is very political with regards to this question.

Chef--

His approach to the question may have been shaped by the structure of the article, the fact that Fox News was the source, and not having access to the report itself.

The lead paragraphs of the article conflate (a) homosexual behavior among consenting adults with (b) rape and with (c) the rape of children. While subsequent paragraphs do a better job of distinguishing (a) from (b) and (c), your professor may have remained wary of the initial discussion of the findings.

Originally Posted by Penn

That such a defining intrinsic cultural behavior/ subject matter never surfaced during that exploration, not only confuses me, but leads me to question the possibility of a prejudicial viewpoint, or bias on the part of the good professor..

Originally Posted by armymom1228

Perhaps the good professor just cannot wrap his brain around such a culture, due to western bias? This professor is a cultural anthropologist?

Depending upon the nature of the course, an academic may be very cautious in how he or she teaches a controversial topic. Some academics understand that an audience may include impressionable young people who will be off and running when they're exposed to very complex issues. (I'd be interested to know the level of this class--was it open to all students or only upper division who took the class for their major, the number of students in the class, and if there were any changes in the class syllabus over the last ten times it was taught. My hunch is that the professor may have talked about these issues before, got heat from undergraduates and their parents, and it was decided to omit the topic from the class. "Political correctness" works in many ways.)