08-16-2009, 05:58
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#1
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Quiet Professional
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: NorCal
Posts: 15,370
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Women Break Combat Barrier as War Evolves
In today's Pravda on the Hudson.
Richard
Quote:
G.I. Jane Breaks the Combat Barrier as War Evolves
Lizette Alvarez, NYT, 15 Aug 2009
Before 2001, America’s military women had rarely seen ground combat. Their jobs kept them mostly away from enemy lines, as military policy dictates.
But the Afghanistan and Iraq wars, often fought in marketplaces and alleyways, have changed that. In both countries, women have repeatedly proved their mettle in combat. The number of high-ranking women and women who command all-male units has climbed considerably along with their status in the military.
“Iraq has advanced the cause of full integration for women in the Army by leaps and bounds,” said Peter R. Mansoor, a retired Army colonel who served as executive officer to Gen. David H. Petraeus while he was the top American commander in Iraq. “They have earned the confidence and respect of male colleagues.”
Their success, widely known in the military, remains largely hidden from public view. In part, this is because their most challenging work is often the result of a quiet circumvention of military policy.
Women are barred from joining combat branches like the infantry, armor, Special Forces and most field artillery units and from doing support jobs while living with those smaller units. Women can lead some male troops into combat as officers, but they cannot serve with them in battle.
Yet, over and over, in Iraq and Afghanistan, Army commanders have resorted to bureaucratic trickery when they needed more soldiers for crucial jobs, like bomb disposal and intelligence. On paper, for instance, women have been “attached” to a combat unit rather than “assigned.”
This quiet change has not come seamlessly — and it has altered military culture on the battlefield in ways large and small. Women need separate bunks and bathrooms. They face sexual discrimination and rape, and counselors and rape kits are now common in war zones. Commanders also confront a new reality: that soldiers have sex, and some will be evacuated because they are pregnant.
(cont'd) http://www.nytimes.com/2009/08/16/us...er=rss&emc=rss
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__________________
“Sometimes the Bible in the hand of one man is worse than a whisky bottle in the hand of (another)… There are just some kind of men who – who’re so busy worrying about the next world they’ve never learned to live in this one, and you can look down the street and see the results.” - To Kill A Mockingbird (Atticus Finch)
“Almost any sect, cult, or religion will legislate its creed into law if it acquires the political power to do so.” - Robert Heinlein
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Richard is offline
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08-16-2009, 12:14
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#2
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Quiet Professional
Join Date: Dec 2004
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Women = Men in combat...
An arguement on this subject must be empty of any PC language.
I'll say some things that will anger many, but then that's the nature of PC absent talk.
This subject would not need be addressed if indeed women were equal to man.
If there was equallity with regards to this subject, then there would be no issue here. History would record the deeds of warrior women as much as men. The Generals and military leaders would be as many Women as Men.
Women have proven in the past that they are quite capible of waging war.
Pioneer women had to fight.
Most of women in warfare comes from the consiquences of situations...Survival of family and community. The greater the threats and the closer to home the more female involvement.
If women have been relegated by men to be non-warriors and more societal nurturers. Then equality can't be common to all or men would be non-warrior nurturers.
Female combat units would need to be segregated with the necessary concessions and therefore a modified combat effectivness value
If there were no concessions then there should be female or mixed Ranger battalions and SEAL teams. Enough for now...probably too much.
I'm not saying women arn't good combat soldiers just they are reared that way and the good ones will be far and few between.
__________________
The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government.
Thomas Jefferson
To compel a man to subsidize with his taxes the propagation of ideas which he disbelieves and abhors is sinful and tyrannical.
Thomas Jefferson
Last edited by Blitzzz (RIP); 08-16-2009 at 12:16.
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Blitzzz (RIP) is offline
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08-16-2009, 12:29
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#3
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Quiet Professional
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard
In today's Pravda on the Hudson.
Richard
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Quote:
...Commanders also confront a new reality: that soldiers have sex, and some will be evacuated because they are pregnant.
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Okay, I'll say it.
Only one gender will be evacuated for that condition.
Why do we have separate men's and women's teams in sports, anyway?
TR
__________________
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming; but who does actually strive to do the deeds; who knows great enthusiasms, the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat." - President Theodore Roosevelt, 1910
De Oppresso Liber 01/20/2025
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The Reaper is offline
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08-16-2009, 12:29
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#4
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Area Commander
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Lone Star
Posts: 2,153
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Quote:
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Commanders also confront a new reality: that soldiers have sex, and some will be evacuated because they are pregnant.
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how on earth  is this a new reality.
Then again, as discussed in a different thread, to adapt to the enemy's tactics and still maintain rapport, female presence in a combat unit does have its merits.
__________________
"we also rejoice in our sufferings, because we know that suffering produces perseverance; perseverance, character; and character, hope" Rom. 5:3-4
"So we can suffer, and in suffering we know who we are" David Goggins
"Aide-toi, Dieu t'aidera " Jehanne, la Pucelle
Der, der Geld verliert, verliert einiges;
Der, der einen Freund verliert, verliert viel mehr;
Der, der das Vertrauen verliert, verliert alles.
INDNJC
Last edited by frostfire; 08-16-2009 at 12:32.
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frostfire is offline
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08-16-2009, 12:43
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#5
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Guerrilla Chief
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: The Nam
Posts: 777
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blitzzz
An arguement on this subject must be empty of any PC language.
I'll say some things that will anger many, but then that's the nature of PC absent talk.
This subject would not need be addressed if indeed women were equal to man.
If there was equallity with regards to this subject, then there would be no issue here. History would record the deeds of warrior women as much as men. The Generals and military leaders would be as many Women as Men.
Women have proven in the past that they are quite capible of waging war.
Pioneer women had to fight.
Most of women in warfare comes from the consiquences of situations...Survival of family and community. The greater the threats and the closer to home the more female involvement.
If women have been relegated by men to be non-warriors and more societal nurturers. Then equality can't be common to all or men would be non-warrior nurturers.
Female combat units would need to be segregated with the necessary concessions and therefore a modified combat effectivness value
If there were no concessions then there should be female or mixed Ranger battalions and SEAL teams. Enough for now...probably too much.
I'm not saying women arn't good combat soldiers just they are reared that way and the good ones will be far and few between.
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Blitzzz....
I agree with your assessment and if I may add also, I think that if females were in combat units their demise (death, wounding, rape) would only reduce morale as males are raised to protect females. I, personally, do not believe females have any business being in combat units. Not taking away from our fighting ability, I think if many of us were actually confronted with the imminent demise of our children or a loved one, we would fight to the ends to protect and then kill the threat. I know I would!
IMO, there are many jackbooted, bra-burning, male castegating femi-nazis that would vehemently disagree with you. Thank goodness, we don't have to be around those self-loathing gender fantasists!!!  
There are many myths and legends of warrior women throughout history but as some readings will claim, sometimes it is hard to distinguish fact from myth. Do I sound like a woman disparaging her own gender?
__________________
A tyrant will always find a pretext for his tyranny ~ Aesops Fables; The Lamb and the Wolf
Am fear nach gleidh na h-airm san t-sith, cha bhi iad aige 'n am a' chogaidh
"He that keeps not his arms in time of peace will have none in time of war" Old Gaelic
Arms discourage and keep the invader and plunderer in awe, and preserve order in the world as well as property... Horrid mischief would ensue were the law-abiding deprived of the use of them. Thomas Paine
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Saoirse is offline
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08-16-2009, 12:49
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#6
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Quiet Professional
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I love women.
Women are doing a lot of great jobs, some occasionally involving combat.
I just don't see them as combat arms peers.
TR
__________________
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming; but who does actually strive to do the deeds; who knows great enthusiasms, the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat." - President Theodore Roosevelt, 1910
De Oppresso Liber 01/20/2025
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The Reaper is offline
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08-16-2009, 12:49
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#7
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Quiet Professional
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: NorCal
Posts: 15,370
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Quote:
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Why do we have separate men's and women's teams in sports, anyway?
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Keeps the groping to a minimum in the scrums.
Richard
__________________
“Sometimes the Bible in the hand of one man is worse than a whisky bottle in the hand of (another)… There are just some kind of men who – who’re so busy worrying about the next world they’ve never learned to live in this one, and you can look down the street and see the results.” - To Kill A Mockingbird (Atticus Finch)
“Almost any sect, cult, or religion will legislate its creed into law if it acquires the political power to do so.” - Robert Heinlein
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Richard is offline
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08-16-2009, 13:52
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#8
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Quiet Professional
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Saoirse
Blitzzz....
Do I sound like a woman disparaging her own gender?
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No, you sound realistic and logical.
__________________
"...But if it be a sin to covet honour,
I am the most offending soul alive."
Shakespeare - Henry V
Lazy Bob Ranch
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Utah Bob is offline
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08-16-2009, 13:58
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#9
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Guerrilla Chief
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: The Nam
Posts: 777
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Utah Bob
No, you sound realistic and logical.
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It was sort of a rhetorical question Bob but thank you. I get bashed a lot by female friends, many active duty, when I voice my viewpoint on this subject. They feel I am robbing them of power and the ability to be equal to men and while I defend my side with the argument of nature v. nurture and the physiological differences between males and females, they still get angrier than a long tailed cat in a room full of rocking chairs!
__________________
A tyrant will always find a pretext for his tyranny ~ Aesops Fables; The Lamb and the Wolf
Am fear nach gleidh na h-airm san t-sith, cha bhi iad aige 'n am a' chogaidh
"He that keeps not his arms in time of peace will have none in time of war" Old Gaelic
Arms discourage and keep the invader and plunderer in awe, and preserve order in the world as well as property... Horrid mischief would ensue were the law-abiding deprived of the use of them. Thomas Paine
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Saoirse is offline
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08-16-2009, 14:34
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#10
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Quiet Professional
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Nashville
Posts: 956
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I am proud our women....
"Peter R. Mansoor's comment “They have earned the confidence and respect of male colleagues.”, torched me to write. It just seemed too broad a brush. That type of respect is won individually. Men, in general, don't have that respect unearned.
The percentage of men to women that "rise to the occasion" when needed is probably not too different.
My belief is not based on culture or upbringing, it's just that we are different. I can't give birth to a child, and Demi Moore can't by a Ranger.
__________________
The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government.
Thomas Jefferson
To compel a man to subsidize with his taxes the propagation of ideas which he disbelieves and abhors is sinful and tyrannical.
Thomas Jefferson
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Blitzzz (RIP) is offline
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08-16-2009, 14:58
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#11
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Guest
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Saoirse
Blitzzz....
IMO, there are many jackbooted, bra-burning, male castegating femi-nazis that would vehemently disagree with you. Thank goodness, we don't have to be around those self-loathing gender fantasists!!! |
I disagree..I cannot, by any remote sense of the word ,be described as above.
I HAVE played with the boys, by the boys rules to put it bluntly. Did I keep up, most of the time and the rest I would have bit out my tongue before I complained and cryied 'unlce." Wore lipstick most of the time too... . There are things that women can do better, there are things that guys can do better.. To categorize woman in one niche and guys in another is a disservice to both genders.
OH and I don't own a bra, therefore I have nothing to burn... I like guys, they are cute most of the time.. boots.. oh hel no, I prefer barefeet..
Quote:
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There are many myths and legends of warrior women throughout history but as some readings will claim, sometimes it is hard to distinguish fact from myth. Do I sound like a woman disparaging her own gender?
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I really think you need to do some better research into women in history. Some stories are NOT myths but facts.
Why not start with the WASP's...and go backward from there and the women astronaut program.
Women in SF...NO.. for any number of reasons the Boys have all stated before and I agree with. So it goes..
While you are at it... might want to look at the women in Texas own history.. defending homes is combat by another term.
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08-16-2009, 15:21
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#12
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Area Commander
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 1,557
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Didn't we already have this chat?
__________________
“This kind of war, however necessary, is dirty business, first to last.” —T.R. Fehrenbach
“We can trust our doctors to be professional, to minister equally to their patients without regard to their political or religious beliefs. But we can no longer trust our professors to do the same." --David Horowitz
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incarcerated is offline
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08-16-2009, 15:37
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#13
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Guerrilla Chief
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: The Nam
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Quote:
Originally Posted by armymom1228
I disagree..I cannot, by any remote sense of the word ,be described as above.
I HAVE played with the boys, by the boys rules to put it bluntly. Did I keep up, most of the time and the rest I would have bit out my tongue before I complained and cryied 'unlce." Wore lipstick most of the time too... . There are things that women can do better, there are things that guys can do better.. To categorize woman in one niche and guys in another is a disservice to both genders.
OH and I don't own a bra, therefore I have nothing to burn... I like guys, they are cute most of the time.. boots.. oh hel no, I prefer barefeet..
I really think you need to do some better research into women in history. Some stories are NOT myths but facts.
Why not start with the WASP's...and go backward from there and the women astronaut program.
Women in SF...NO.. for any number of reasons the Boys have all stated before and I agree with. So it goes..
While you are at it... might want to look at the women in Texas own history.. defending homes is combat by another term. |
Those women I was describing are femi-nazis (my intention is not to describe any female on this forum, in the military nor is it to offend)! Those kind of women I have absolutely no respect for, nor can I tolerate their rhetoric that they can do everything a man can do and most of the time better! They are the ones that think they can be SF, Rangers, Navy SEALs.....as for astronauts, I am all for that too but that it is not a combat position, courageous yes.
And you are right, there are many great women in history,...but as I have said "as some readings will claim, sometimes it is hard to distinguish fact from myth". This is one site that I have found when I was looking for Boudicca (who a man once said I reminded him of) http://www.distinguishedwomen.com/subject/military.html .
She was a warrior queen but some of what she did has lent itself to legend (the History Channel did a great piece on her last year).
I have played with the boys too, grew up with 3 males cousins and "whining" wasn't allowed so I didn't bother, I gave as good as I got and if I got hurt....<shrug>. I was also in the army and played with the big boys as well. And I do not negate the women in Texas history nor the countless other women throughout the history of our great nation that fought in defense of their homes, loved ones and for freedom. Many times they were in roles as "assets" only later on to find themselves manning a gun at the fall of their husbands (Molly Pitcher, the second women in combat in the Revolutionary war, after Margaret Corbin). There are examples from the Civil War as well, often disguised as men so they may fight alongside their husbands (Mary Owens, Frances Clayton, Loreta Velazquez). But I know I don't need to give anyone a history lesson in that. Those women are the exception!
incarcerated...
Yes, you are right, we have, now that you mention it. I was typing my post when you must have posted, caught it only after I was done.
__________________
A tyrant will always find a pretext for his tyranny ~ Aesops Fables; The Lamb and the Wolf
Am fear nach gleidh na h-airm san t-sith, cha bhi iad aige 'n am a' chogaidh
"He that keeps not his arms in time of peace will have none in time of war" Old Gaelic
Arms discourage and keep the invader and plunderer in awe, and preserve order in the world as well as property... Horrid mischief would ensue were the law-abiding deprived of the use of them. Thomas Paine
Last edited by Saoirse; 08-16-2009 at 15:51.
Reason: to add comment to incarcerated
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Saoirse is offline
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08-16-2009, 15:54
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#14
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Area Commander
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 1,557
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Quote:
Originally Posted by frostfire
how on earth is this a new reality. |
Well, obviously, this is new. People weren't doing this, uh, whatever he was talking about, before.
__________________
“This kind of war, however necessary, is dirty business, first to last.” —T.R. Fehrenbach
“We can trust our doctors to be professional, to minister equally to their patients without regard to their political or religious beliefs. But we can no longer trust our professors to do the same." --David Horowitz
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incarcerated is offline
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08-16-2009, 16:06
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#15
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Quiet Professional
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Location: Fayetteville
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Different PT scores
Why do we have different PT scores for males and females?
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Pete is offline
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