Phamacist Army records can be subpoenaed

[echoes]

This story has been a very hotly debated issue around these parts recently...and it just got hotter! (Especially given the Leftist controlled local papers in Oklahoma!)

The powers that be have assumed a victory in dragging this Brave man's Army records into the mix??? Just cannot believe that this is legal, not to mention...IRRELEVANT!!!

FIRST UP (Background):

http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/artic...19&archive=yes

Pharmacy shooting controversy continues

By TIM TALLEY Associated Press Writer
Published: 5/30/2009 8:49 AM
Last Modified: 5/30/2009 8:53 AM

OKLAHOMA CITY — Confronted by two holdup men, pharmacist Jerome Ersland pulled a gun, shot one of them in the head and chased the other away. Then, in a scene recorded by the drugstore's security camera, he went behind the counter, got another gun, and pumped five more bullets into the wounded teenager as he lay on the floor.

Now Ersland has been charged with first-degree murder in a case that has stirred a furious debate over vigilante justice and self-defense and turned the pharmacist into something of a folk hero.

Ersland, 57, is free on $100,000 bail, courtesy of an anonymous donor. He has won praise from the pharmacy's owner, received an outpouring of cards, letters and checks from supporters, and become the darling of conservative talk radio.

"His adrenaline was going. You're just thinking of survival," said John Paul Hernandez, 60, a retired Defense Department employee who grew up in the neighborhood. "All it was is defending your employee, business and livelihood. If I was in that position and that was me, I probably would have done the same thing."

District Attorney David Prater said Ersland was justified in shooting 16-year-old Antwun Parker once in the head, but not in firing the additional shots into his belly. The prosecutor said the teenager was unconscious, unarmed, lying on his back and posing no threat when Ersland fired what the medical examiner said were the fatal shots.

Anthony Douglas, president of the Oklahoma chapter of the National Association for the Advancement of Colored People, called it an "execution-style murder" and praised the district attorney for bringing charges. Ersland is white; the two suspects were black.

Parker's parents also expressed relief that Ersland faces a criminal charge.

"He didn't have to shoot my baby like that," Parker's mother, Cleta Jennings, told TV station KOCO.

But many of those who have seen the video of the May 19 robbery attempt at Reliable Discount Pharmacy have concluded the teenager in the ski mask got what he deserved.

Mark Shannon, who runs a conservative talk show on Oklahoma City's KTOK, said callers have jammed his lines this week in support of Ersland, a former Air Force lieutenant colonel who wears a back brace on the job and told reporters he is a disabled veteran of the Gulf War.

"There is no gray area," Shannon said. One caller "said he should have put all the shots in the head."

Don Spencer, a 49-year-old National Rifle Association member who lives in the small town of Meridian, 40 miles north of Oklahoma City, said the pharmacist did the right thing: "You shoot more than enough to make sure the threat has been removed."

Barbara Bergman, past president of the National Association of Criminal Defense Lawyers and a professor at the University of New Mexico School of Law, likened the public reaction to that of the case of Bernard Goetz, the New Yorker who shot four teenagers he said were trying to rob him when they asked for $5 on a subway in 1984.

Goetz was cleared of attempted murder and assault but convicted of illegal gun possession and served 8½ months in jail.

Bergman said those who claim they used deadly force in self-defense have to show they were "in reasonable fear of serious bodily injury."

The pharmacy is in a crime-ridden section of south Oklahoma City and had been robbed before.

The video shows two men bursting in, one of them pointing a gun at Ersland and two women working with the druggist behind the counter. Ersland fires a pistol, driving the gunman from the store and hitting Parker in the head as he puts on a ski mask.

Ersland chases the second man outside, then goes back inside, walks behind the counter with his back to Parker, gets a second handgun and opens fire.

Irven Box, Ersland's attorney, noted the outpouring of support for the pharmacist, including $2,000 in donations, and said: "I feel very good 12 people would not determine he committed murder in the first degree."

Under Oklahoma's "Make My Day Law" — passed in the late 1980s and named for one of Clint Eastwood's most famous movie lines — people can use deadly force when they feel threatened by an intruder inside their homes. In 2006, Oklahoma's "Stand Your Ground Law" extended that to anywhere a citizen has the right to be, such as a car or office.

"It's a 'Make-My-Day' case," Box said. "This guy came in, your money or your life. Mr. Ersland said, 'You're not taking my life.'" The gunman "forfeited his life."

Box said that another person might have reacted differently, but he asked: "When do you turn off that adrenaline switch? When do you think you're safe? I think that's going to be the ultimate issue."

If convicted, Ersland could be sentenced to life in prison with or without parole, or receive the death penalty.

Jevontia Ingram, the 14-year-old boy accused of wielding the gun in the robbery, was arrested Thursday. The district attorney on Friday filed a first-degree murder charge against him, as well as against a man accused of being the getaway driver, and another man suspected of helping talk the teens into the crime.

The charges accuse all three of sharing responsibility for Parker's shooting death.

NEXT DEVELOPMENT:

http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/artic...00&archive=yes

Slain robber's alleged accomplices charged

By NOLAN CLAY AND BRYAN DEAN NewsOK.com
Published: 5/30/2009 2:26 AM
Last Modified: 5/30/2009 4:28 AM

OKLAHOMA CITY — Three robbery suspects were charged Friday with first-degree murder in connection with the fatal drugstore shooting of their alleged accomplice.

Police report that the youngest, a 14-year-old boy, confessed his involvement in the heist.

The three are charged with murder even though a pharmacist fired the fatal shots that killed Antwun "Speedy" Parker, 16, on May 19 at the Reliable Discount Pharmacy in south Oklahoma City.

They will be prosecuted separately from the pharmacist, Jerome Jay Ersland, 57, who is accused in a first- degree murder charge of going too far when he shot Parker multiple times, Oklahoma County District Attorney David Prater said.

The charge against Jevontia Ingram, 14, whose first name court records spell Jevontai; Emanuel Dewayne Mitchell, 31; and Anthony Devale Morrison, 43, is the latest twist in the case. All are from Oklahoma City.

AND FINALLY:

http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/artic...97&archive=yes

Phamacist Army records can be subpoenaed

By The Associated Press
Published: 6/19/2009 11:05 AM
Last Modified: 6/19/2009 11:46 AM

OKLAHOMA CITY — For the second time in just more than a week an Oklahoma County district judge has ruled prosecutors can subpoena the Army records of a pharmacist charged with murder.

Jerome Ersland is charged with first-degree murder in the May 19 shooting death of 16-year-old Antwun Parker as Parker and another teen tried to rob the pharmacy.

Defense attorney Irven Box asked Judge Tammy Bass-LeSure to reverse her ruling of June 10 allowing Ersland's Army medical records to be subpoenaed. But Bass said Thursday that the records belong to the government — not to Ersland.

Prosecutors say Ersland was justified in shooting Parker once but that he went too far when he got a second gun and shot the teenager five more times as he lay on the floor.

[PRB]

He saved us all a lot of incarceration funds and probably further feloneous activity.

[echoes]

Originally Posted by PRB

He saved us all a lot of incarceration funds and probably further feloneous activity.

Indeed Sir!

South OKC is a hotbed for thugs of all sorts...indeed, can only hope this man is vindicated!

Holly

[greenberetTFS]

This countries Justice system is becoming an upside down,a$$ backward,makes no sense,PC acceptance making country that I'm wondering how long this $h*t will go on before we just give up..............

Big Teddy

[echoes]

Originally Posted by greenberetTFS

This countries Justice system is becoming an upside down,a$$ backward,makes no sense,PC acceptance making country that I'm wondering how long this $h*t will go on before we just give up..............

Big Teddy

TFS,

What I can honestly report is that there are a majority of folks here that support the actions of this man...thank goodness! These are "up-standing, law-abiding, gun-carrying Americans."

Holly

[echoes]

Originally Posted by Brush Okie

In a legal sense as soon as the guy is no longer a threat he can no longer pump bullets into him. It goes from self defense to murder. I am sure the guy still felt threatened by the kid and that is what he has to articulate to the jury.

And you know, this is one of the hottest issues..."a Kid"????

Well, this 16 year old committed a felony, so there should be no, zero, zilch, sympathy for him, as the Pharmacist was protecting himself, two female co-workers, and the business, IMHO!

Something seems to have gone wrong...and I can only speculate that IT has an agenda against this man....

Holly

[echoes]

Originally Posted by Brush Okie

I used to work in Law enforcement so I know EXACTLY what you mean. There was a "kid" locally a couple of yers ago that backed three probation officers out of his house at knoife point. They pepper sprayed him three times without effect.

B.O.,

Here is a great link, given to me by a QP here:

http://www.foxlabs.net/Products.html

Thank you for your service in law enforcement sir. Please give this link to any and all LEO's that need additional "non-lethal" firepower. For as it is touted,"It IS the nastiest stuff available!"

Can only hope that good judgement will prevail in this situation...and this true American if found not guilty!

Holly

The attorney may be able to show that the shooter wasn't thinking clearly, but going behind the counter, getting another firearm, and repeatedly shooting a proned-out GSW is murder. Maybe he can dodge first degree, but that is murder. I want anyone, bad guy, cop, citizen to think twice about taking a life. Hopefully, the defense will be able to show that the asshole was already dead from the headshot, and Mr. Pharmacist was just wasting ammo. Then you might get a straight not-guilty verdict. Otherwise, pack you toothbrush and momma now owns the pharmacy.

As to his medical records, I find it curious that the defense would fight it. Mental state is gonna be big at trial, and if you think your medical records can't be subpoenaed, military or not, think again.

[JimP]

"Jevontia". That says it all - little thug needed shooting.

Please explain to me what his subjective mental state had to do with an objective threat?

He could have thought he was Napolean - if the little punk was a threat, he got what he deserved.

This case is going to be very interesting. having watched the tape - I think the guy is screwed. but...I don't know if I saw the whole tape; how it played out; what the context was; and what the tape didn't show. Since I wasn't there on the ground with this guy and it wasn't ME that the little goblin was shooting at, I'm supporting the victim (the Pharmacist).

[Defender968]

Originally Posted by Remington Raidr

The attorney may be able to show that the shooter wasn't thinking clearly, but going behind the counter, getting another firearm, and repeatedly shooting a proned-out GSW is murder. Maybe he can dodge first degree, but that is murder. I want anyone, bad guy, cop, citizen to think twice about taking a life. Hopefully, the defense will be able to show that the asshole was already dead from the headshot, and Mr. Pharmacist was just wasting ammo. Then you might get a straight not-guilty verdict. Otherwise, pack you toothbrush and momma now owns the pharmacy.

As to his medical records, I find it curious that the defense would fight it. Mental state is gonna be big at trial, and if you think your medical records can't be subpoenaed, military or not, think again.

Respectfully Remington you have the ability to Monday morning quarter back this guy just as well as you can any marine, soldier, or police officer down range or on the street, you have that ability because many men have gone out and put their lives on the line to defended your way of life. You want people to think twice before taking a life, that’s a great theory when you’re sitting at home on the couch, but when there are deadly weapons involved a split second may be all that stands between the lives of the innocent and death, and it’s not always that simple even for the professionals. This guy wasn’t a LEO or a soldier, just a guy trying to protect himself. Many LEO’s and Soldiers have had to and will continue to have to make split second life and death decisions. Unless you were there you don't know what happened so you can't say "that is murder". Further even if you've been behind the sights in a two way shooting range I would suggest you reserve judgment until all facts are in, and unless you're on the jury you will likely never have them all.

Now as I said we have no way of knowing what movements that perp made, he could have reached into his pants waist band after the pharmacist went for the second gun. The video doesn't show what the perp is doing, the media simply were reporting that he was "unconscious." Let me ask you this have you ever watched a man with a head wound die? I have many times unfortunately and often they move around, often even after a fatal head wound they gasp for air and flail a bit, I can't tell you the medical reason why but I've seen it up close in person. I know this from personal experience on the job, but this pharmacist would have no way of knowing those kinds of things, he may very well have thought the guy was dead initially when he walked past, then seen the guy start moving, thought he was a threat and unloaded until the guy stopped moving. I can think of several other plausible scenarios where this wasn't a bad shoot, and in the end the only one who really knows is the guy who squeezed the trigger. Realize that it all happened in a matter of less than a minute and this regular Joe had to go from every day pharmacist to gunfighter and maybe with no training at all. The jury will try to discern the truth and they may find him guilty, but this kind of thing is far from a slam dunk.

Also realize the media is already putting spin on this, and who knows what is going on with the prosecutor, I've seen cases get pushed that shouldn't have been, because of other details outside of what happened. In this instance the perps/"victims" age and race could easily be a factor. If his family made enough noise about him being a “kid” and threw the race card you can bet there are lawyers that would pursue a week case just to pass the buck and not get labeled a racist.

Lastly, my thought is this, that kid came in with his buddy, a gun, a mask, and a plan to do harm no matter how you slice it, he knew the risk, he rolled the dice, and he lost. I don’t feel sorry for him, I feel sorry for the pharmacist who had to make the call, because regardless of the outcome of the court case he’ll have to live with that decision for the rest of his life. Me personally, I’d rather be judged by 12 than carried by 6.

[Mitch]

Everybody spins - if you don't belive that - go back and read the last 20 posts on this shooting. Spinning way to the right - obvioulsy.

Why - because Einstein or Yogi Berra said it (its all relitive).

Lets look obectively here. This is your kid - your stupid kid that should know better. You have warned him to stay away from those guys - they're just trouble.

Your kid is not black - he is not brown, he is white. He goes into that same pharmacy with his three idiot friends - same results (probably not), but lets assume they are the same.

Your kid has a surviable headwound - going to get well one day, one day while he is serving time in prison for armed robery. But someday he'll come home. Is it ok for the Phrmacist to shoot him 5 more times (remember he's your kid).

Ok - one more thing - I am not an Al Gore loving Card Carrying member of the ACLU, but...

...if he's my kid - that pharmacist is dead.

[Defender968]

Originally Posted by Mitch

Everybody spins - if you don't belive that - go back and read the last 20 posts on this shooting. Spinning way to the right - obvioulsy.

Respectfully Mitch IMO spin is making it seem one way on purpose, I am not making judgments on right or wrong, that is for a jury to decide. What I said is that I can come up with of plenty of plausible reasons to shoot the perp even after he is lying on the ground, because I know a proned out suspect does not necessarily mean the suspect is no longer a threat.

Originally Posted by Mitch

Lets look obectively here. This is your kid - your stupid kid that should know better. You have warned him to stay away from those guys - they're just trouble.

Again respectfully I would argue this isn't about the kid, it's about what the pharmacist thought at the time, and he is the only one who knows what was going through his mind at the time. It is possible that he is a cold blooded killer, I'm not ruling it out, but again that's not up for me to decide that is up to the jury. I know I have told my wife if there is an intruder in the house and she fires a shot, to keep firing until the perp isn't moving, and I sleep just fine with that, because at the end of the day if it's between my wife or myself and some punk who came into my house or my store wearing a mask sporting a gun toting friend, he and his friend have made their choice and I've already made mine, I'm going to live to be judged, they may not, it's entirely up to them.

Originally Posted by Mitch

Your kid is not black - he is not brown, he is white. He goes into that same pharmacy with his three idiot friends - same results (probably not), but lets assume they are the same.

I don't really care what color he is, again what I said is people can and will play the race card, if he was white they'd just play the "oh my Johnny was a good BOY he was only 16 years old he never hurt a fly" card, even though there is a video of Johnny with a mask on backed by a guy with a gun.

Originally Posted by Mitch

Your kid has a surviable headwond - going to get well one day, one day while he is serving time in prison for armed robery. But someday he'll come home. Is it ok for the Phrmacist to shoot him 5 more times (remember he's your kid).

Mitch I would like to say that if the Pharmacist felt threatened I'd have to be ok with it, but I don't have kids so it's a stretch for me, but let me relate something from my past that I feel might have a bearing here. I had a dog when I was a kid, my first one in fact, got him in middle school, he was great to me we were the best of pals, but something snapped in him when I was in high school (he was Aussy Sheppard Lab mix) and he tried to attack my sister, he got a hell of a beating from me for that, and I hoped that was the end of it, then he succeeded in attacking my mother a couple of months later when I wasn’t home, bit her hand up pretty good, she needed quite a few stitches to sow her up. Well I took him to the vet myself and put him down, I did it myself because I felt responsible as I had raised him, I felt horrible about having to do it, I loved that dog, I sat in the room as the vet injected him, but I did it anyway because it needed to be done.

Is it the same with a human, no of course not, but if I raised a human predator, I hope I'd have the wisdom to see it from the other guys shoes if this same type of thing happened, and if I believed the other guy was in fear for his life and again I think that is entirely possible here, I'd like to think I could accept that. Remember the perps mom or dad always thinks Johnny is a good boy just in with the wrong crowd, but his victim, his victim doesn't know that, he only knows what he sees at the time, and what he sees IMO is Johnny as a predator there to take his life.

Just my .02

[OcdtADF]

Well its certainly not first degree murder that’s just rubbish.

Hindsight is 20/20 though; from here its easy to say ‘maybe the last five shots were a bit much’.

Who really knows what he was thinking at that time.

This sort of stuff does seem to happen a lot though, especially when in uniform and in the past, most seem to come down on the side of defender.

What it comes down to is, yes the guy probably should not have shot the guy an extra five times. But that kid chose to be there, no one apparently forced him, it was HIS decision.

All the other guy did was react to the life threatening aggression displayed against him. As such it should be judged that whatever decision he made, he did so because he was forced into a situation he had not chosen, and his reaction is allowed to be wrong.

In the end he started it, the other guy finished it and he had no business being put in that position where he should have to make decisions like that in civilian life. Within reason (you can go too far) I think you should be allowed to do what you like.

[Mitch]

Originally Posted by Defender968

Respectfully Mitch IMO ...

I had a dog .....when I was in high school (he was Aussy Sheppard Lab mix) and he tried to attack my sister, he got a hell of a beating from me for that...

Just my .02

Love the point and counter point - much better than having us all sitting here in the choir and singing the same hymn.

That being said - counter point:

Not having a kid, but having a dog certainly qualifies for the sake of argument.

So - giving Fido a hell of a beating was justified - but - after beating him (please no dog loving comments here), but if you had come back two minutes after the beating, once he was down and out and going nowhere, if you had come back then, put on your Jump Boots and proceeded to kick the hell out of him until he was near dead. You would have been arrested - rightfully so.

You're point about race not being relevant here is correct - it shouldn't be, but actually, it probably was, and definitely will be.

The issue here is actually just one of common sense – unless this man pleads insanity – any rational person would know better, especially anyone trained and experienced in areas that include use of weapons and conduct permitted under the UCMJ – your average soldier would know what was right and what was wrong – he would also know what he could expect to get away with, if he was so inclined.

He should be rightfully be charged with – probably - voluntary manslaughter – nothing worse – he should be given the benefit of doubt that he was acting on a sudden impulse, brought on by the heat of the moment, notwithstanding that he went back and coolly retrieved a different gun and shot five more rounds out of it (that is a stretch – to not consider murder).

Will he get convicted – I doubt it. Should he get convicted – I think so. Should he go to jail – if it were my kid – absolutely? But me, the “quite observer” – probation, would be ok.

[Sigaba]

Originally Posted by echoes

(Especially given the Leftist controlled local papers in Oklahoma!)

FWIW, according to a survey, results available here, The Norman Transcript (circulation 12,921) and the Muskogee Daily Phoenix (14,816) endorsed the Democratic candidates in the last two presidential elections.

Conversely, The Oklahoman (201,771), Tulsa World (112,968), Enid News and Eagle (17,323), Examiner Enterprise (18,400) all supported Senator McCain in last fall's election. Moreover, the larger of the two papers (in terms of circulation) have supported the GOP candidate for each of the last five presidential elections.

HTH.