Speaking of headgear

Utah Bob · 04-21-2009, 11:07

I don't want to go off topic too far on the Beret thread so can somebody answer this?
I understand that combat uniforms, BDUs, or whatever they're called this month are ok to wear off post but I see many many pics of people in uniform without any headgear these days. Has the Army relaxed the uniform regs? I know that in my day you simply did not step outside without being covered.
Just curious. And old.

**Eagle5US** · 04-21-2009, 11:24

It isn't that the reg has changed, just the will to participate in, or enforce, anything close to a standard in many instances.

Eagle

Irishsquid · 04-21-2009, 12:09

The reg is still the same...kids just don't care anymore.

afchic · 04-21-2009, 12:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Irishsquid

The reg is still the same...kids just don't care anymore.

I somehow doubt it is only the "kids". Time was when a NCO, SNCO or officer would make a situation like this a mentoring one. So who is to blame, the kid for doing it, or the others around him for allowing him to get away with it???

Utah Bob · 04-21-2009, 12:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by afchic

I somehow doubt it is only the "kids". Time was when a NCO, SNCO or officer would make a situation like this a mentoring one. So who is to blame, the kid for doing it, or the others around him for allowing him to get away with it???

That's what I was thinking. Some of the people I've seen were NCOs and Officers.

**Eagle5US** · 04-21-2009, 12:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by afchic

I somehow doubt it is only the "kids". Time was when a NCO, SNCO or officer would make a situation like this a mentoring one. So who is to blame, the kid for doing it, or the others around him for allowing him to get away with it???

Those NCO's and O's were the same "kids" not too long ago. It is a new generation from the mid level leaders all the way down to the privates. Promotions are near automatic to SSG and in many cases accelerated. Enforcing the standard is routinely met with a barrage of EO, IG and congressional complaints. This position is supported by company grade officers who don't want comments on their perfect OER's and shitbag Specialists make shitbag NCOs.

I recently failed a PA student on his ER rotation. He was incompetent, dangerous, had a care free and care less attitude. Poor performer, but had been "floated through" by others before I was made the educational director. I failed him - and was met with:
How is it gonna look, you failing the only black PA student? I responded by saying it was going to look like he didn't know what the hell he was doing and that it was MY name attached to his grade sheet. He failed to meet the minimum standards.

It went all the way up the chain - "You SURE you want to fail him?" Yup, I failed him.

Not the same thing I know...but it demonstrates the current military mentality that is so prominant in many areas.

After 25 years in I am glad I am in my final stretch.

Eagle

SF_BHT · 04-21-2009, 12:42

Yeahhhh You flunked him and now look at you your off to the STAN....

See what it got you....

Seriously good job... I never liked Pass the Trash game eithor....

Irishsquid · 04-21-2009, 13:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by afchic

I somehow doubt it is only the "kids". Time was when a NCO, SNCO or officer would make a situation like this a mentoring one. So who is to blame, the kid for doing it, or the others around him for allowing him to get away with it???

Good point...I see a LOT of it from the unit we share an armory with. It gets bad.
All I can say is I'm glad I had a few good NCOs (Petty Officers, actually...I was Navy) around to "educate me on proper military bearing and discipline," when I stepped on my dick.

Retread · 04-27-2009, 16:36

I've seen a couple of different causes for this. One is that SNCO's and Company Grade officers in the unit will not have a junior NCO's back for getting into a guy's ass, especially if they are in a different unit and it turns into a territorial pissing match.

Second, is that thanks to the kinder, gentler mentality kids are being taught in schools, where EVERYONE gets a trophy, we are turning out more and more non-confrontational people into the professional world, including the military. Simply put: some of these guys don't have hair one on their sack.

My experience as an MCT instructor told me that while YES, there is a tendency by the younger generation to be lazier, they still respond very well to enthusiastic leadership, and proper mentoring. This leads me to believe that it is, in fact, a leadership issue.

Dozer523 · 04-27-2009, 20:41

Seems to me that it all has to do with how that first set of Sergeants stripes are presented.
Is this Private - to the third power ? Or is it Non-Commissioned Officer - to the first power?
Because, if it's not, then we might as well call E-6 "Corporal-PFC"

It also has to do with the fact almost everyone hates that F-ing black beret. Most would be much happier and comfortable in the patrol cap.

Oldschool45B · 04-30-2009, 21:36

The Ol' Man here has decree that if you are on the compound you may move between buildings without headgear as you are usually carrying something or moving shit around. That means the BN Building and the riggers shed. It is also a non-salute area, with the sole exception of the TAG. ANYWHERE else and you had best comply with 670-1 or he will have your ass far worse than the Camp CSM.

Fiercely Loyal · 05-01-2009, 15:53

For the first time in close to two years I witnessed a SNCO chew ass on Army standards. We were shooting with the Germans trying to earn their range cord. They fed us lunch and in the chow line I waited patiently. Suddenly 1SG (former infantry now MEDIVAC 1SG) starts yelling about how the line was all jacked up. I looked up bewildered at what was happening and he suddenly started telling the NCO's to put the lower enlisted to the front of the line. He then said it started with them setting the example and to enforce the standard. I do believe he was on a roll that day because later I could hear him yelling about hands in pockets and a few other things. I was really glad that he started stepping up. Might have been a bad time since we were being hosted by the Germans but it did help us present a more professional appearance overall. Well at least until the joes started with the ugly american syndrome.

JSMosby · 05-01-2009, 17:36

Whenever I have a problem with any of my NCOs, I simply have them come into my office and read the NCO Creed that I have posted over my desk. This has occurred (so far) only with some support folks, but is open to any jacked up NCO. That is my EO policy

I believe that most problems boil down to the lack of NCO counseling. Leaders pad NCOERs, try to make friends, and generally let things slide to be popular. I consider this a lack of moral courage... one of those pesky Army values. Being a SNCO is hard work but that is why we get paid. I get soldiers with 15+ years in the Army who tell me that my counseling was the first since they became an NCO. That is unsat. Period.

All of you Senior Non-Commissioned Officers out there... if you are not counseling your NCOs, you are failing them. Every SNCO that I have counseled has said they appreciate it and wish they had seen more of it. Talking shit in the team room with your buddies is not counseling... career, performance, or otherwise.

Those of you who are counseling your guys... right on!