what went wrong?

[frostfire]

1 robber vs. 4 guys (or victims) = 1 victim dead, 1 seriously wounded, and robber escaped
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mguTDWfvHyk

What went wrong?

[Pete]

Too many people in a corner.

The first guy went for the gun - good.

The rest piled on hitting at the guy keeping him standing and in the corner - the first guy lost his grip on the gun hand - bad.

[SF_BHT]

Lack of firepower by the four guys....

Unfortunately today you have to worry all the time if that guy that comes in to the gas station or lobby is a good guy or bad. In the old days when everyone man wore their guns there would was a lot less chance at this type of crime.

I hate seeing this type of video as there are so many predators out there looking for easy prey. A nice Tazer Phone would have come in handy in this situation. Got one for my girl the other day and she already had to use it with a Taxi Driver that tried to drive off with her. Wish I had that video....

[Red Flag 1]

Originally Posted by SF_BHT

Lack of firepower by the four guys....

Unfortunately today you have to worry all the time if that guy that comes in to the gas station or lobby is a good guy or bad. In the old days when everyone man wore their guns there would was a lot less chance at this type of crime.

I hate seeing this type of video as there are so many predators out there looking for easy prey. A nice Tazer Phone would have come in handy in this situation. Got one for my girl the other day and she already had to use it with a Taxi Driver that tried to drive off with her. Wish I had that video....

Tazer phone.......great idea!! Projectiles and electrons both resopnd faster that the over tasked LE folks!!

My $.02.

RF 1

[SF_BHT]

Originally Posted by Red Flag 1

Tazer phone.......great idea!! Projectiles and electrons both resopnd faster that the over tasked LE folks!!

My $.02.

RF 1

It worked great and it even has a safety strap. If it gets pulled away from you the pin comes out and will not work.. Looks like a nokia phone and comes with a big zap. Good use for $49...... I have ordered another just for me to zap the street begger/window bashers down here.

[frostfire]

Originally Posted by Pete

Too many people in a corner.

The first guy went for the gun - good.

The rest piled on hitting at the guy keeping him standing and in the corner - the first guy lost his grip on the gun hand - bad.

I noticed at the end, one of the guy managed to grab the gun and point it at the perp. He did not fire. The gun might be empty or he's not familiar with the operation. I suspect the absence of the will to end another human being's life. That's why I put the thread in mindset. Sure one can argues the guys lack knowledge of joint locks, disarming ninja skill etc. etc., but I'm more concerned of the mindset.

I don't get it. The perp just offed two of his buddies and maybe grazed him. He should be pissed off. In the eyes of the law though, had he sent the twerp to the dark side, would that be manslaughter? I mean, he already got the gun and his buddy wrestled the robber. So the threat of imminent danger and justification of self defense no longer apply?

On the other hand, the robber sure had common sense/experience/good SA. Asked to be let in, pretended to be one of the residents and walked downstairs as if he knew the place (noticed the 4 guys initially watcing him), effectively lowering the guard of the four guys, then came back and did the attempted robbery. He put instinct to survive all the way, never gave up, and disabled two of his subduers before making a getaway.

Originally Posted by SF_BHT

A nice Tazer Phone would have come in handy in this situation. Got one for my girl the other day and she already had to use it with a Taxi Driver that tried to drive off with her. Wish I had that video....

Now that's unsettling. I still remember a case of Taxi driver carrying a couple, then pretending the car had trouble, had the guy helped push the car, and he drove off with the girl. The outcome was traumatizing to the guy and the girl's family. This was in Saudi Arabia, btw. I should have realized such crime could/must have occurred here in the U.S.

[SF_BHT]

Now that's unsettling. I still remember a case of Taxi driver carrying a couple, then pretending the car had trouble, had the guy helped push the car, and he drove off with the girl. The outcome was traumatizing to the guy and the girl's family. This was in Saudi Arabia, btw. I should have realized such crime could/must have occurred here in the U.S.

It happens in the US and a lot more around the world. Women are always considered easy targets.

The best thing out of it was she came back had a drink and told me a good story and laughed about it. She was more mad than scared. Training, training training. She had the right mindset. I have trained her to use pepper spray and was not afraid to use it. When I showed her the Phone her eyes lit up and when I showed her a video on how to use it she was more than ready to light up some idiot. Less than a month she had to and thought it was so funny as he pissed him self. She hit him 1 extra just for good measure she said. Now that is good SA and a Good Mindset in my book.

Do not Piss off a armed Latina they will get you.

[Saoirse]

Originally Posted by SF_BHT

It happens in the US and a lot more around the world. Women are always considered easy targets.

The best thing out of it was she came back had a drink and told me a good story and laughed about it. She was more mad than scared. Training, training training. She had the right mindset. I have trained her to use pepper spray and was not afraid to use it. When I showed her the Phone her eyes lit up and when I showed her a video on how to use it she was more than ready to light up some idiot. Less than a month she had to and thought it was so funny as he pissed him self. She hit him 1 extra just for good measure she said. Now that is good SA and a Good Mindset in my book.

Do not Piss off a armed Latina they will get you.

SF_BHT
Thanks for the info and the story on your daughter. I am glad to hear she is ok and got an "extra" on that idiot! I will have to look into one of those "phones". If you have a particular one that you recommend highly, can you PM the site to me? Thanks!

[Blitzzz (RIP)]

1. Letting the guy in ,in the first place.
2. Good first move to grab gun hand, but failure to hold on.
3. no one else was paying attention to the gun hand should the first guy need assistence.
4.Poke his f--king eyes out, and disrupt or stop his breathing...At any cost
5. Police should already know the high likely hood of the gun going off and hitting someone. So totally commit to stopping this Muug.
6. Of course these things require good thinking and immediate action.(team work)
These guys had been drinking and not coordinated. Instead of subdueing him they all wanted to beat him, thus fighting each other.
Oh well, Maybe I should look at the video again. Blitzzz

[GratefulCitizen]

1. They attacked the weapon, not the person.
2. They let him keep his feet.

Whenever you have a numerical advantage, the first priority is to get them off of their feet.
Everything gets easier after that.

[frostfire]

Originally Posted by GratefulCitizen

1. They attacked the weapon, not the person.
2. They let him keep his feet.

Whenever you have a numerical advantage, the first priority is to get them off of their feet.
Everything gets easier after that.

You do want to secure the weapon.

GratefulCitizen, are you referring to the psychiatric ward protocol for volatile clients ie. each person hold/pin each limb to the wall or ground, and the fifth person watch for the head. In this case, the fifth person's role to prevent gray matter spilling on the floor is unnecessary of course

[greenberetTFS]

Originally Posted by Blitzzz

1. Letting the guy in ,in the first place.
2. Good first move to grab gun hand, but failure to hold on.
3. no one else was paying attention to the gun hand should the first guy need assistence.
4.Poke his f--king eyes out, and disrupt or stop his breathing...At any cost
5. Police should already know the high likely hood of the gun going off and hitting someone. So totally commit to stopping this Muug.
6. Of course these things require good thinking and immediate action.(team work)
These guys had been drinking and not coordinated. Instead of subdueing him they all wanted to beat him, thus fighting each other.
Oh well, Maybe I should look at the video again. Blitzzz

I don't know.... But what Blitzzz said makes plenty of sense to me...

GB TFS

[GratefulCitizen]

Originally Posted by frostfire

You do want to secure the weapon.

GratefulCitizen, are you referring to the psychiatric ward protocol for volatile clients ie. each person hold/pin each limb to the wall or ground, and the fifth person watch for the head. In this case, the fifth person's role to prevent gray matter spilling on the floor is unnecessary of course

I wasn't implying that the weapon should be ignored.

After they got the weapon hand under some degree of control, they needed to continue on the offensive against the person.
When they focus on the weapon, the bad guy can focus on weapon retention and regain his bearings.

The first guy siezed the initiative by going for the weapon.
After that, the initiative needed to be maintained, preferably by going after the bad guy's balance.

I suppose the term commonly used here would be "staying inside his OODA loop".

The bad guy initially kept his balance and made sure everyone was in front of him.
Once the opportunity presented itself (regained control of his weapon) he went on the offensive immediately.
The good guys were primarily acting defensively (against the weapon).
This is why the bad guy got away.


The technique was not in direct reference to what is done in the psyche ward.
(But it is a good analogy.)

Taking someone down when there's a numerical advantage just works better.
The striking was pointless.
Unless you are exceptionally skilled, striking is going to do no good against someone who is still on their feet and pumped full of adrenaline.

[beans]

Wasn't he using a 6 shooter? How about grabbing the weapon, pointing it away from everyone and wasting the other 5 rounds so doesn't hurt you. Just a thought.

[echoes]

B,

Good for your girl! You must be proud!

Holly