Pot Stirring

**The Reaper** · 06-20-2004, 07:51

Given, the utilization of most of the soldiers in Iraq as infantry or MP type forces, typically patrolling and providing security,and the overutilization, burnout and impending shortage of those forces, at what point would it be approporate to ask the Air Force or Navy (other than the Marines) to provide forces for those missions or divert part of their force structure for that purpose?

There are historical precedents for this, BTW.

Just looking for some thoughts.

TR

NousDefionsDoc · 06-20-2004, 08:08

I think its a good idea. Spec Ops and Infantry troops don't IMO do a very good job of these types of activities. Base defense is art and science, but these troops get bored and its not what they signed up for. AF is pretty good at guarding fences.

Footmobile · 06-20-2004, 09:54

I don't know. Can we really send joe shit the sailor/airman to do base security/patrolling? How much and what kind of training do they need? Maybe if it's in the calm areas more geared towards the multinational division run by the Poles and the Brits down south. That's the only place I can see them working. Something like this would be fiercly resisted by the brass I think. What type of units would they come from? Seabees (already alot of them in country)? Air Force Engineer types?

Quote:

Originally posted by The Reaper
There are historical precedents for this, BTW.

Which ones?

Footmobile · 06-20-2004, 10:00

On the other hand, if some program like this was put in place, would it be volunteer?

i.e., Seaman Snuffy, the admin clerk aboard the USS Gaylord, is bored in his present duty assignment, and can request to go to Iraq as base secuirty? Who does his job then?

Farmer40 · 06-20-2004, 10:06

I'm not current on this, but at one time the USAF had Security Squadrons whose job was to secure airfields, both fence pacing and perimeter patrolling. They even sent a large group of them through Ranger School at one time (had their own class, I believe). If those sorts of units still exist they would be appropriate for some of the security missions fulfilled by Infantry units in the Middle East.

mffjm8509 · 06-20-2004, 10:07

Quote:

Originally posted by Footmobile
I don't know. Can we really send joe shit the sailor/airman to do base security/patrolling? How much and what kind of training do they need?

Which ones?

I think so, with the right training.

I recently completed a training exercise at Camp Guernsey, WY and in my dealings with their range control personnel learned that the Wyoming NG had already reclassified several units (formerly Artillery) as Military Police. They set up a rapid training program to x-train these folks prior to deployment.

Obviously, there are some issues that would need to be worked out as far as specific tasks to be trained, quality of training managment, and adherence to established standards. Certainly we can take an operating system within a unit, an established chain of command, and train them to complete security forces missions.

My question is, have we aleady exhausted all of our options for using National Guard and Army Reserve forces already trained to do this role?

mp

DanUCSB · 06-20-2004, 12:17

I am no expert on the intricacies of the US Air Force, but I was told by an airman brother-in-law that there are actually more Security Forces personnel in the USAF than there are infantrymen in the Army. Sounded like a bit of an exaggeration to me, but hell, sounds like the perfect folks for the job.

NousDefionsDoc · 06-20-2004, 12:21

Quote:

an airman brother-in-law

Allow me to express my deepest sympathies in this your time of woe. My condolences to the bride as well.

DanUCSB · 06-20-2004, 12:29

Quote:

Originally posted by NousDefionsDoc
Allow me to express my deepest sympathies in this your time of woe.

Actually, it's really cute. He's my woman's little brother, and he... well, he joined the Air Force. But I get word that he just got busted with one of them naked-type girls hidden in his barracks room. There may be hope for him yet.

**Jack Moroney (RIP)** · 06-20-2004, 12:29

They are already "retraining" NG units to perform basic infantry missions. The 86th FA from the VTARNG has been retrained for security missions, convoy duty, etc. so it really cannot be that difficult to train AF and Navy folks to do similar operations, especially for point type security or isolated areas such as pipelines rather than wandering around thru the populated areas. I think that Army and USMC folks are better suited for that up close and personal stuff with Iraqi counterparts to help offset language problems and the constant cultural snafus that seem to be a problem.

Jack Moroney

SOGvet · 06-20-2004, 15:30

T, Good question. I don't see it happening in the immediate future. The focus right now is the 30 June handover. It'll be interesting to see what happens after that, but I don't see any major changes in American forces or force structure in the foreseeable future as a result.

Not that a shitload of APs and/or SPs couldn't be brought in to provide some kind of security assitance. But let's be honest.. the Zoomies would claim it's time for 'crew rest' and the swabbies wouldn't want to get their shoes dusty... so I guess security requirements will remain on the shoulders of soldiers and Marines until we hand it off to the 'Racki's...
DOL
//cc

Max_Tab · 06-20-2004, 15:45

There is an article in a recent stars and stripes about national gaurd troops, giving classes in weapons, and movement and survival to a bunch of airmen, in Iraq. Kinda looks, like someone listened to TR.

NousDefionsDoc · 06-20-2004, 16:39

Quote:

Originally posted by Max_Tab
There is an article in a recent stars and stripes about national gaurd troops, giving classes in weapons, and movement and survival to a bunch of airmen, in Iraq. Kinda looks, like someone listened to TR.

Blind leading the blind?

**The Reaper** · 06-20-2004, 19:52

IRT some of the questios asked, no, the Army is not out of people, yet.

If we keep these missions up, we will be soon though. The extensions, outsourcing (contractors), mobilizations, early returns, and Stop Losses are indicators that we are running out of options, or, as GEN Shinseki warned, have a 12 Division (actually more) strategy with a 10 Division Army.

This was actually meant more along the lines of stirring discussion of whether the US Military is properly structured to fight the sort of wars we are engaged in, whether the Army force structure is adequate, and whether it might be time to ask the other services to pull more of the load here or reallocate resources.

No doubt lots of jobs for AFSOC, Security Police, airlifters, SeaBees, SEALS, and Marines, but what are the submariners and fighter jocks doing right now?

I agree that with some training, the other services personnel could pull static security. Not sure I want the pipefitter E-3 trying to kick doors and discriminate fires.

Just a few random thoughts, but with the grunts scheduled to be deployed to the Combat Zone 12 months of every 24, and SF doing six in, six out ad nauseum for the forseeable future, not an inappropriate question to ask, IMHO.

Thanks for the feedback!

TR

AngelsSix · 06-20-2004, 19:59

Did you call me, Reaper??? While I will not profess to be the expert on this particular subject.....I do have some particular knowledge......

I went to the AF ABGD school in TX. Fun stuff.....only the basics, not much more than that. We cops are all given this training now as a rule, it used to be a seperate course.

They teach us the elements that most Army folks get in Basic training ( I assume that this is the case....I shall expound to clarify).

We get patrol tech (including observation posts), land nav, radio/field telephone, ambush, convoy, building clearing, perimeter defense, etc, etc.....also all weapons, to include grenade launchers, etc.

And no, we DO NOT just stand at the gate, dammit.

The premier ABD folks are out of Ramstein if I remember correctly.