06-11-2004, 07:19
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#1
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Guerrilla
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: OCONUS
Posts: 415
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Colombia and El Sal Article
http://www.army.mil/professionalwrit...04/4_04_4.html
I'm not versed enough on events down there to comment, but I thought y'all would like to see the article given that some of you lived this.
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CommoGeek is offline
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06-11-2004, 08:31
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#2
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Quiet Professional
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Posts: 20,929
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{quote} “Presidents Ronald Reagan and George H.W. Bush supported a small, limited war (from a U.S. perspective) while trying to keep U.S. military involvement a secret from the American public and media. Present U.S. policy toward Colombia appears to follow this same disguised, quiet, media-free approach.”{quote}
This is bullshit. While the war in El Sal was kept quiet our involvement in Colombia is not.
I can find hundreds of articles in which American military involvement is cited in the Colombia counter drug efforts. IMO the media in general is scared shitless by the cartels and reporting is limited at best because of this very reason. Also the drug war is old news and does not sell news papers.
TS
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Team Sergeant is offline
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06-11-2004, 10:45
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#3
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Consigliere
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Free Pineland (at last)
Posts: 8,824
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Quote:
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Today's FARC is a mafia with well-established connections in the drug underworld supported by a large army of hit men as ruthless as any Los Angeles, California, gang.
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R-E-S-P-E-C-T
LOL
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Roguish Lawyer is offline
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06-11-2004, 10:49
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#4
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Consigliere
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Looking forward to the views of NDD and other 7th Group guys on this article, if they are prepared to offer them.
P.S. I think this should be moved to the insurgency forum.
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Roguish Lawyer is offline
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06-11-2004, 14:46
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#5
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Quiet Professional
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: LA
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Not a bad article for an amateur. I agree with the TS and would go even further - El Sal was not secret either. The "secrecy" comes from SF operators with good tradecraft, that's all.
The authors appear to be making the case for upping their O allocations. The US influence in El Sal was far and away led by SF NCOs.
I didn't like the part about "taking on the FARC militarily is not about winning, its about not letting the FARC win." rings of Vietnam era politics and I don't like stalemates. Any group that takes up arms and heads to the hills can be defeated militarily. No reason to settle for a tie.
IMO, the Colombian military doesn't need strategic level assistance at joint level, they need small unit assistance to develop an NCO corps. They need some of these young stud E6 and E7s coming in to get them patrolling in small units and recon teams, then pin them and hammer them. The FARC don't do very well when the odds are even. One of the big problems is apathy. There is no medevac and very little way to pile on once they are fixed, so the troops aren't really all that gung ho to get out there and mix it up. They won't work in 4-6 man recon teams and long gunners are basically unknown in Colombia. You don't win this kind of war with big battalions doing manuever and its not an attrition type of thing either. You have to cut of the head and hold the tail down until the whole thing collapses. Make it too dangerous to be a leader.
One interesting thing the article points out is the connection to drugs and supplying the war. I disagree that DEA et al should be more involved. What I say is get the Army more involved in counter drug. We're talking tons, not street buys of baggies while undercover. The police in Colombia are, for the most part, a paramilitary organization. Not LEO as we think of them. They will fight like wildcats if properly led and motivated.
I was in El Sal when they signed the peace agreement. Probably make the one in Colombia if they don't take too long. 
Just my 2 pesos as requested.
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NousDefionsDoc is offline
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06-11-2004, 15:22
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#6
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Consigliere
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Quote:
Originally posted by NousDefionsDoc
Just my 2 pesos as requested.
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Muchas gracias.
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Roguish Lawyer is offline
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06-11-2004, 15:23
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#7
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One more thing, if they want to get more involved, they should consider asking the Colombians what they need, instead of telling them. That would be a refreshing change. Of course one cannot go soley on that result, but its always nice to asked the guys doing the deed. I don't think the Colombians will say they need LTCs at joint level. Could be wrong though.
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Somewhere a True Believer is training to kill you. He is training with minimal food or water, in austere conditions, training day and night. The only thing clean on him is his weapon and he made his web gear. He doesn't worry about what workout to do - his ruck weighs what it weighs, his runs end when the enemy stops chasing him. This True Believer is not concerned about 'how hard it is;' he knows either he wins or dies. He doesn't go home at 17:00, he is home.
He knows only The Cause.
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NousDefionsDoc is offline
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06-11-2004, 15:28
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#8
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Quiet Professional
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Quote:
Originally posted by Roguish Lawyer
Muchas gracias.
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De nada
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Somewhere a True Believer is training to kill you. He is training with minimal food or water, in austere conditions, training day and night. The only thing clean on him is his weapon and he made his web gear. He doesn't worry about what workout to do - his ruck weighs what it weighs, his runs end when the enemy stops chasing him. This True Believer is not concerned about 'how hard it is;' he knows either he wins or dies. He doesn't go home at 17:00, he is home.
He knows only The Cause.
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NousDefionsDoc is offline
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06-11-2004, 17:42
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#9
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Quiet Professional
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Location: Monticello, FL
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Lemme say this about that. I agree with NOUSDEFIONSDOC as the effort in EL SALVADOR was primarily an NCO Operation. I think that had the authors of the article had left their campus and put boots on the ground to ask the former ESAF troops about with whom they had the most contact; they would find the ex-soldados (and current ESAF General Staff) will talk about "Sergento CualEsElNombre." (I encourage those who have not read Rudyard Kipling lately to read "The Pharoah and the Sergeant.")
http://whitewolf.newcastle.edu.au/wo...hsergeant.html
A point of contention I have with the authors is the 55 man limit and the TDY numbers, which they claim to have exceeded 250. That may have happened in the final year of the war, but was not true during the mid-late 80s. The fifty-five was a concrete number. I was at the airfield when Cecil Bailey put three CI types back on the plane on which they arrived and told them to hang out at Soto Cano (Palmerola) until they get word to come back.
The exception was the MEDICAL MTTs. If I recall correctly, there were approximately 80 or so medical personnel in country concurrently with the 55. Makoto Hamilton could only come into country with his team to La Union as long as he ran the TMC, and trained the recruits in first aid and land nav.
I applaud the article as one of those rare ones that put a positive on what we did in ES. Most of the stuff on the web are from those left over leftists who still think we are fighting the cold war and their side is right. They must have pretty miserable lives. I don't regret a single day I spent in ES. I only regret that we had to fight Congress and the FMLN at the same time.
Viva La Guardia Nacional Salvadoreño- El honor es nuestra divisa.
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Ratman
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Ratman is offline
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06-13-2004, 12:52
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#10
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Quiet Professional
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Quote:
Originally posted by NousDefionsDoc
One more thing, if they want to get more involved, they should consider asking the Colombians what they need, instead of telling them. That would be a refreshing change. Of course one cannot go soley on that result, but its always nice to asked the guys doing the deed. I don't think the Colombians will say they need LTCs at joint level. Could be wrong though.
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I would only add that the Colombians allow their interservice rivalry to interfere with their military ops.
We tried for a long time to get the Army, AF, and National Police to work together, without success. Since the AF (at that time) owned the aircraft, it was very hard to put together a joint op for maximum effect.
Our own interservice issues are very minor in comparison with the Colombians.
Just my .02.
TR
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The Reaper is offline
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06-13-2004, 13:29
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#11
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Quiet Professional
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Location: LA
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Quote:
Originally posted by The Reaper
I would only add that the Colombians allow their interservice rivalry to interfere with their military ops.
We tried for a long time to get the Army, AF, and National Police to work together, without success. Since the AF (at that time) owned the aircraft, it was very hard to put together a joint op for maximum effect.
Our own interservice issues are very minor in comparison with the Colombians.
Just my .02.
TR
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Couldn't agree mas.
__________________
Somewhere a True Believer is training to kill you. He is training with minimal food or water, in austere conditions, training day and night. The only thing clean on him is his weapon and he made his web gear. He doesn't worry about what workout to do - his ruck weighs what it weighs, his runs end when the enemy stops chasing him. This True Believer is not concerned about 'how hard it is;' he knows either he wins or dies. He doesn't go home at 17:00, he is home.
He knows only The Cause.
Still want to quit?
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NousDefionsDoc is offline
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06-13-2004, 13:47
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#12
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Quiet Professional
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Monticello, FL
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Aye TR. The Sals had interservice rivalry also. It was up to the "Asesores" to try and overcome same. The El Sal Air Force owned not only all flying platforms, but all airborne and special operations troops as well. The Abn and SOG folks usually worked well toward the national interest, but often the TACAIR was not there to support the Inf Bdes or BIRIs. It all came to a head one day when Frank Pedrozo (OPATT, 5th BDE) unleased a verbal attack on the USAF advisor to the ESAF while we were attending a meeting of all MilGp folks from all around the country.
Methinks twas the first time it was brought to COL Steele's (COMUSMILGP El Salvador) attention.
The ES Air Force Cdr at the time had his "favorites." When they requested TACAIR, they got it. When anyone else requested, he would fail to provide. If I recall correctly, Frank got really ticked at the loss of some of fine infantry, because his counter-part could not get air support. (Gee, that's right out of PATTON!)
When I was working the GN, we knew the only support we would ever get would be organic. That's all we relied on, and all we expected. I even tried to get a US AC-130 to provide overwatch for my recon teams, and could not get them to play.
I personally believe that if the Colombians want to make some inroads, they should train up SOG / Phoenix - type "hunter-killer teams."
Gotta make do with what ya got. If we only have M1903 Springfield rifles, then that's what we use; and we make the best of them.
Ratman
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