State Dept. panel backs canceling Blackwater's Iraq contract

[BMT (RIP)]

http://hamptonroads.com/2008/12/stat...-iraq-contract



BMT

[Swank]

I'm impressed with the overall clarity and pragmatism of the comments from the readers on this artilce. Very little actual BW bashing. Jeremy Scahill must be pissed.

[SOGvet]

I don't see it happening..

For all the bad shit that their lads have done, and we all know that only the bad shit gets talked about, BW does provide a viable service that DoD can't provide due to the total number of requirments.

I could be wrong..

[mac117]

Every conflict has it's scapegoat.....it's Blackwater's turn, unfortunately.....and being independent contractors it's much easier to turn your backs on them(from a governments standpoint).

[Team Sergeant]

Originally Posted by mac117

Every conflict has it's scapegoat.....it's Blackwater's turn, unfortunately.....and being independent contractors it's much easier to turn your backs on them(from a governments standpoint).

Please do explain to me how/why blackwater is a scapegoat?

blackwater and blackwater alone IMO is to blame for any and all nasty comments concerning contractors.

While you're at it you might want to explain why since the Sept 2007 shooting blackwater has only been involved in two shootings compared to seventy shooting incidents "before" the Nisoor Square massacre. More training? You bet your ass.

blackwater deserves all the neg media and more.

Team Sergeant

[504PIR]

BW should have been reigned in awhile back. However BW works for DoS and DSS specfically, the whole chain of command should be hammered for its excesses.

I suspect that no one from DoS will be punished when its all said & done.

[AngelsSix]

Scapegoats?? PUUUULLEEEZ. These clowns have been doing whatever they wanted for a long time now. I have personally seen the unprofessional behavior of some of these clowns in country. I understand that you can say a few bad apples don't ruin the bunch, but in this case I think the whole bunch is rotten all the way to the bottom of the basket.
Being highlighted for doing something as stupid as what occurred in Nisoor Square is not being scapegoated. The government needs to stop wasting the taxpayer's hard earned dollars on this company and use it for something more important, like keeping good folks in the military so THEY can do this work, instead of outside agencies that pay enormous amounts of money to people who are in no way professionals.

Here's some of the reason I made my statement:

The shootings happened in a crowded square where prosecutors say civilians were going about their lives, running errands. Following a car bombing elsewhere in the city, the heavily armed Blackwater convoy sought to shut down the intersection. Prosecutors said the convoy, known by the call sign Raven 23, violated an order not to leave the U.S.-controlled Green Zone.

The rest of this article can be found here: http://www.breitbart.com/article.php...show_article=1

[mac117]

OK....let me clarify my comment....DoS, DSS, and the rest of the Government have turned a blind eye to the conduct and activities of IC's since they set foot in Iraq, BW included. Although alot of the IC's are professional in their duties, a large number of them are nothing more than gun-slingers with inadequate training, turned loose in a lawless environment. Carte blanc, so to speak. Finally the people stood up and demanded retribution for a criminal act, an act that had been brewing since the hangings on the bridge. Do you think the DoS, DSS, and the American Government is going to accept the responsibility for this incident? Hardly. Therefore lies the scapegoat. You have to read and understand the fine print when you sign on as an IC....if you step on your crank, you're on your on. BW had been conducting business like the Regulators of the old West. Now, 4 years later, there is over-sight. That explains the decrease in shooting incidents.
I don't condone any criminal act committed in combat (which is almost an oxymoron) and I certainly don't condone merc's being allowed to run free.....although the money is good if you can get the work.
You don't have to like what I say, and you certainly don't have to agree with me....

As Forest Gump would say...."That's all I'm going to say about that!"

[Team Sergeant]

Originally Posted by mac117

OK....let me clarify my comment....DoS, DSS, and the rest of the Government have turned a blind eye to the conduct and activities of IC's since they set foot in Iraq, BW included. Although alot of the IC's are professional in their duties, a large number of them are nothing more than gun-slingers with inadequate training, turned loose in a lawless environment. Carte blanc, so to speak. Finally the people stood up and demanded retribution for a criminal act, an act that had been brewing since the hangings on the bridge. Do you think the DoS, DSS, and the American Government is going to accept the responsibility for this incident? Hardly. Therefore lies the scapegoat. You have to read and understand the fine print when you sign on as an IC....if you step on your crank, you're on your on. BW had been conducting business like the Regulators of the old West. Now, 4 years later, there is over-sight. That explains the decrease in shooting incidents.
I don't condone any criminal act committed in combat (which is almost an oxymoron) and I certainly don't condone merc's being allowed to run free.....although the money is good if you can get the work.
You don't have to like what I say, and you certainly don't have to agree with me....

As Forest Gump would say...."That's all I'm going to say about that!"

I take it you have worked for DSS? Or blackwater?

No I don't agree with anything you have to say, I also think you have a less then critical opinion of contractors and the situation they are in.

The government (DoS) has spoken and blackwater is about to lose their DoS contract, rightfully so. Hence the reason erik prince wrote a op-ed in the Wall Street Journal, blackwater is now the threatened one and will attempt to do anything to keep their heads above water.

[csquare]

Mac, I would to hate to hear what else you would consider "scapegoat"? IYHO?

[Frog]

I usually just lurk here in your AO, but with all the bashing going on, this presents another side of the story.



http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/28299842/

updated 3:44 p.m. ET, Thurs., Dec. 18, 2008

WASHINGTON - Radio logs from a deadly 2007 shooting in Baghdad contradict U.S. government claims that Blackwater Worldwide security guards were unprovoked when they killed 14 Iraqi civilians.

Five guards face manslaughter and weapons charges for their roles in the shootings. A sixth has pleaded guilty. Prosecutors said the men unleashed a gruesome attack on unarmed Iraqis, including women, children and people trying to escape.

Blackwater communication logs from the Sept. 16, 2007, shooting suggest otherwise. The logs, turned over to prosecutors, describe a hectic eight minutes in which the guards repeatedly reported incoming gunfire from insurgents and Iraqi police. Copies of the documents were obtained by The Associated Press.
Story continues below ↓advertisement | your ad here

Because Blackwater guards were authorized to fire in self-defense, any evidence their convoy was attacked will make it harder for the Justice Department to prove they acted unlawfully.

The logs, which document radio traffic heard by the company's dispatch center inside the U.S.-controlled Green Zone, show that the Blackwater convoy known as Raven 23 reported taking small arms fire from insurgents within one minute of shutting down traffic in Baghdad's Nisoor Square.

"Mult insuirg SAF @ R23," the log states at 12:12 p.m.

One minute later, the Raven 23 convoy reported taking fire from Iraqi police: "R23 rpts IPs shooting @ R23."

Evidence of fire fight
It's unclear why Iraqi police would fire on the Blackwater convoy. Prosecutors could argue the police fired because they believed Blackwater was attacking civilians. It also is common for insurgents to dress as Iraqi police or military officials.

Raven 23 was told to leave the square and return to the Green Zone at 12:14, according to the logs. But one minute later, the convoy reported that one of its heavily armored vehicles was disabled. Guards jumped out of another truck and set up a tow rig, still under fire, according to the logs.

"R23 in trfc still under sporadic SAF," the log shows at 12:20 p.m., as the convoy made its way back to the Green Zone.

"Unless these guys are lying to their command watch in real time, making up stuff, that's real-time reporting that they were taking small arms fire," said defense attorney Thomas Connolly, who represents Nick Slatten, a former Army sergeant and indicted Blackwater guard.

Connolly provided the logs to the AP because he said prosecutors knew there was evidence of a fire fight, yet unfairly described it as a massacre.

"The Justice Department began their presentation to the American people with a lie," Connolly said.

Justice Department spokesman Dean Boyd would not discuss contents of the logs. "We cannot comment on evidence related to a pending case, but we are fully prepared to address in court arguments made by the defense concerning the documents you reference," he said.

Blackwater confirmed the authenticity of the logs but would not comment further.

A murky case
The logs add a new uncertainty to an already murky case. Iraqi witnesses say Blackwater fired the only shots. And some Raven 23 members, including at least one who set up the tow rig, told authorities they saw no gunfire, according to people close to the case who spoke on condition of anonymity because they were not authorized to discuss it publicly.

Others in the convoy told authorities they did see enemy gunfire. And Blackwater turned over to prosecutors pictures of vehicles pocked with bullet holes, which the company says proves the guards were shot at. The photos were not time-stamped, however, and the trucks were repainted and repaired by the time FBI agents began investigating.

The Iraqi government has labeled the guards "criminals" and is watching the Blackwater case closely. The shooting strained diplomacy between Washington and Baghdad and fueled the anti-American insurgency in Iraq.

U.S. prosecutors were aggressive in their charges against the guards. They used an anti-machine gun law to attach 30-year mandatory prison sentences to the charges. And though they cannot say for sure which guards shot which victims, all five guards are charged with 14 counts of manslaughter.

[AngelsSix]

Good to hear from you again, Frog.

IMHO, I can say that although I do not agree with the way things were handled, I do understand the strain of being in an uncertain situation and having to make split second decisions. That does NOT relieve anyone from the responsibility of where their rounds go. I am hearing the same news as everyone else on the grenade use.....I don't agree that they should have been used. But I was not there, so I can say that if I had been in that situation I am not totally sure that I would not have reacted in a similar manner. But it is drilled into everyone's heads from day one that you are behind the trigger, you are responsible for every round you fire from your gun, know what is beyond your target, etc. I teach it in weapons classes every month. I am more than certain with the level of experience of the gentlemen on this board and with the amount of combat experience of most on this board, that we can all agree on one thing; some of what happened out there may have been uncalled for. The biggest thing that gets me about the whole situation was that they probably were disobeying an order to remain on base. If that is the case, they put themselves into a situation they should not have gotten into in the first place. If my team had pulled a stunt like that in Iraq, we would have all had our weapons cards pulled, been remanded to post and more than likely been court martialed. The bottom line is that it comes down to personal responsibility and those individuals are being held responsible. I have my opinions about Blackwater. I remember when it first started out, the only folks even considered for a position were special ops or special forces. Apparently things have changed considerably.

[Frog]

Originally Posted by AngelsSix

I remember when it first started out, the only folks even considered for a position were special ops or special forces. Apparently things have changed considerably.

Current as of today job listings with quals for IC's on their website:

http://www.blackwaterusa.com/jobs/default_contract.asp

[Team Sergeant]

Originally Posted by Frog

I usually just lurk here in your AO, but with all the bashing going on, this presents another side of the story.



http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/28299842/

updated 3:44 p.m. ET, Thurs., Dec. 18, 2008

WASHINGTON - Radio logs from a deadly 2007 shooting in Baghdad contradict U.S. government claims that Blackwater Worldwide security guards were unprovoked when they killed 14 Iraqi civilians.

Five guards face manslaughter and weapons charges for their roles in the shootings. A sixth has pleaded guilty. Prosecutors said the men unleashed a gruesome attack on unarmed Iraqis, including women, children and people trying to escape.

Blackwater communication logs from the Sept. 16, 2007, shooting suggest otherwise. The logs, turned over to prosecutors, describe a hectic eight minutes in which the guards repeatedly reported incoming gunfire from insurgents and Iraqi police. Copies of the documents were obtained by The Associated Press.
Story continues below ↓advertisement | your ad here

Because Blackwater guards were authorized to fire in self-defense, any evidence their convoy was attacked will make it harder for the Justice Department to prove they acted unlawfully.

The logs, which document radio traffic heard by the company's dispatch center inside the U.S.-controlled Green Zone, show that the Blackwater convoy known as Raven 23 reported taking small arms fire from insurgents within one minute of shutting down traffic in Baghdad's Nisoor Square.

"Mult insuirg SAF @ R23," the log states at 12:12 p.m.

One minute later, the Raven 23 convoy reported taking fire from Iraqi police: "R23 rpts IPs shooting @ R23."

Evidence of fire fight
It's unclear why Iraqi police would fire on the Blackwater convoy. Prosecutors could argue the police fired because they believed Blackwater was attacking civilians. It also is common for insurgents to dress as Iraqi police or military officials.

Raven 23 was told to leave the square and return to the Green Zone at 12:14, according to the logs. But one minute later, the convoy reported that one of its heavily armored vehicles was disabled. Guards jumped out of another truck and set up a tow rig, still under fire, according to the logs.

"R23 in trfc still under sporadic SAF," the log shows at 12:20 p.m., as the convoy made its way back to the Green Zone.

"Unless these guys are lying to their command watch in real time, making up stuff, that's real-time reporting that they were taking small arms fire," said defense attorney Thomas Connolly, who represents Nick Slatten, a former Army sergeant and indicted Blackwater guard.

Connolly provided the logs to the AP because he said prosecutors knew there was evidence of a fire fight, yet unfairly described it as a massacre.

"The Justice Department began their presentation to the American people with a lie," Connolly said.

Justice Department spokesman Dean Boyd would not discuss contents of the logs. "We cannot comment on evidence related to a pending case, but we are fully prepared to address in court arguments made by the defense concerning the documents you reference," he said.

Blackwater confirmed the authenticity of the logs but would not comment further.

A murky case
The logs add a new uncertainty to an already murky case. Iraqi witnesses say Blackwater fired the only shots. And some Raven 23 members, including at least one who set up the tow rig, told authorities they saw no gunfire, according to people close to the case who spoke on condition of anonymity because they were not authorized to discuss it publicly.

Others in the convoy told authorities they did see enemy gunfire. And Blackwater turned over to prosecutors pictures of vehicles pocked with bullet holes, which the company says proves the guards were shot at. The photos were not time-stamped, however, and the trucks were repainted and repaired by the time FBI agents began investigating.

The Iraqi government has labeled the guards "criminals" and is watching the Blackwater case closely. The shooting strained diplomacy between Washington and Baghdad and fueled the anti-American insurgency in Iraq.

U.S. prosecutors were aggressive in their charges against the guards. They used an anti-machine gun law to attach 30-year mandatory prison sentences to the charges. And though they cannot say for sure which guards shot which victims, all five guards are charged with 14 counts of manslaughter.

Frog,

I really don't care if they took fire or not, they fired into a crowd of unarmed women and children.

That in itself shows a complete lack of professional training or any training.

They were not suited for the task at hand. And if blackwater was the one who hired, trained, equiped and deployed them into them into a situation that they could not handle then, IMO there should be a few more sitting facing a judge and jury.

Don't you think it odd out of the tens of thousands of "contractors" that only blackwater contractors fired into a crowd of women and children? Shitty training.

Team Sergeant

[TCO]

Originally Posted by Team Sergeant

Frog,

I really don't care if they took fire or not, they fired into a crowd of unarmed women and children.
That in itself shows a complete lack of professional training or any training.

They were not suited for the task at hand. And if blackwater was the one who hired, trained, equiped and deployed them into them into a situation that they could not handle then, IMO there should be a few more sitting facing a judge and jury.

Don't you think it odd out of the tens of thousands of "contractors" that only blackwater contractors fired into a crowd of women and children? Shitty training.

Team Sergeant

Absolutely correct. BW is the biggest bull in the china-shop doing the most damage to the Iraqi's, the U.S. reputation and the reputation of the entire IC community at large.

Their only saving grace to date has been their political connections at the highest levels of our government. It's obvious now that these 4 operators are being charged as individuals in exchange, at least in part, for the Iraqi's signing the SOFA. Meanwhile BW as a company is dodging all criminal responsibility even though it was their corporate culture of 'anything goes' that allowed their operators to behave this way for a long, long time.

I have been an IC in Iraq since 2004 and believe me. Everyone that I know in the IC community wants to see BW reigned in.