She’s going to college!

[PSM]

And she gets to vote in a year or two.

My wife was substituting in an 11th grade English class today. Since all of the Juniors must take English, one class-period a year is dedicated to college search and application instruction.

The class is in the Computer Science room and run by a Guidance Counselor. My wife just wandered around eavesdropping.

The computer search asked several questions such as possible majors, costs, extracurricular activities, etc. The results listed the colleges that fit the inquiry.

My wife overheard one girl say to her friend, “New England. Isn’t that another country?”

Pat

[JJ_BPK]

It's very sad,,

I get into deep discussions(read: heated arguments) with several friends that teach.

They are so against the Florida FCAT test,, don't think kids should be forced to learn any level of competence,, just let them pass,, so they needn't have to deal with them another year,, not passing stunts their social status & stigmatizes the child..

When I mention that New York has use the Regents test forever.. I get so much push back,, it embarrassing..

These are the same educators that refuse to learn how to use a PC,, as it "doesn't add" to the education process,, just hinders teaching flexability...

I truly believe the liberals have an agenda to dumb-up the world,, with the exception of the few that will rule(read: their kids)..

It's so much easer to lead when nobody else has a brain...

"Do you want to SUPER size your Happy Meal"

Thank God they can't out-source Mickey D's to India or Chine & Mexico,,

These people will always have a job opening and a place to spend their food stamps,, and vote for Barry........



AND thank God we have a few,, like Richard that fight the good fight...

[Richard]

Well, you've managed to mention several important issues here, all of which can be long discussions. These include:

The fallacy--IMO--that we, as a nation, 'push' the idea that everyone should go and has the right to go to college versus the idea that the 'opportunity' to attend college is always there...IF...you're intellectually capable, motivated, and can figure out how to finance it.
The multitudinous issues involved with 'standardized' testing and developmentally appropriate educational practice...especially at the younger grades and with the data produced in the last decade regarding brain research and learning.
The many issues related to teacher education, competency, professionalism, and the need for on-going professional development.
A nearly pervasive point-of-view that technology can replace good teaching versus a more realistic approach whose data suggests that assistive technology can genuinely support and enhance good teaching.
Curricula which merely 'punch tickets'--e.g., mandating only one day per year for a college search--versus incorporating such tasks into a class's on-going and progressive content throughout the term of the course.

We can discuss these if you'd like...but it will take some time to do so as they are not simple matters and may not have definitive answers.

Richard's $.02

[ksgbobo]

Just to hark on what JJ_BPK stated. I am a history student here at the local university in North Florida, in one of my history courses there are alot of education majors. Just let me say one thing, I am worried for our future children, for these future teachers, truely are idiots. Granted there are a few who will do a good job, yet there are many who should not be teaching.
The cirriculum is too easy to become a teacher. Teachers should be paid more, and the the program at universities should be more selective into who they let in and who they graduate to teach our future leaders. Its just ridiclous the classes that education majors take and the projects they do. It really has to be the easiest major you can get!

[ZonieDiver]

Don't get me started... I just finished the second term in my evening school classes with our final exam last night. I was blessed with some pretty good students in my US History class, and some real challenges in my Economics class (though I must say, it was a very exciting time to discuss Econ).

The key to quality education is quality administrators. I have worked for and with some great ones. I currently work with some who are NOT so great. My first year as a teacher was almost my last. My principal was a dolt. His philosophy on discipline could be summed up as, "Boys will be boys." Fortunately, that year was also the first year of our new superintendent. The next year, we had a new admin team at the high school. (Which then was 3 administrators - now it would be 5 - NCLB is paperwork intensive!)

My new principal turned our high school around in ONE year. He changed the attitude and climate. He gave good teachers the chance to "do their thing" in the classroom. He took average teachers and helped them become good teachers. He gave the sub-par teachers a chance to grow and develop - or helped them find the door. He was not just and educator and administrator - he was a LEADER. (That is probably a large part of why Richard is a good administrator - he knows how to lead.)

[dennisw]

My wife overheard one girl say to her friend, “New England. Isn’t that another country?”

Maybe the student was just being philosophical.

[bluebb]

Never went to collage, did get a mighty nice GED though. Thats all I have needed to get along in this world. Never was much for fancy book learning, just read a lot of books on my own and listened to what my more expercinced friends had to say about things. Getting by just fine.

Blue

P.S. If you really need collage by all means go

[Sigaba]

Originally Posted by Richard

Well, you've managed to mention several important issues here, all of which can be long discussions. These include:

A nearly pervasive point-of-view that technology can replace good teaching versus a more realistic approach whose data suggests that assistive technology can genuinely support and enhance good teaching.

Richard's $.02

Am I understanding correctly that your position is that technology can be a useful tool to good teachers but not a substitute for good teaching?

I ask because in the discussion of educational reform, I mention a professor at USC's School of Education. He has been savaged for arguing that the use of computers and other high tech tools do not automatically translate into a better learning environment. (The gist of his argument is that if motivated students fail to learn, teachers need to try other methods; if motivated students fail to learn, it is the fault of the teachers.)

[jw74]

This is exactly why I'm opposed to the idea that EVERYONE deserves to go to college. Not everyone needs it and, definitely, not everyone has the chops for it. having said that, college has become high school part 2- dumbed down for people just like her. I graduate in December at 34 yrs old and I have learned nothing that I couldn't have gotten from a stack of books from the book store.
There are exceptions, nursing degrees, engineering degrees, teaching certificates etc. But college today does not generally give any job skills beyond basic writing ability. It is a clearing house for political indoctrination, first and foremost.
So, to make a long comment longer... Yes, she will probably go to college. After college, with her liberal arts degree, she will probably still think that New England is another country. After that, she will be able to pursue her doctorate on the Obama plan and become a college professor.

[Longstreet]

I am unsure why everyone is upset about the state of the US education system. Given it was not created by educators or even teachers, but rather American industrialists. Unknown to most people, the US school system was put togther by the likes of Andrew Carnegie, J.P. Morgan, John Rockerfeller and Henry Ford. While these men were extraordinary in their fields, one would hardly consider them specialists in the area of education. One would also wonder just how concerned they were with having a highly educated population too. Educated people ask too many questions and cannot be easily swayed.

Before the Undustrial Revolution school had three main purposes which was to 1. make good citizens 2. make good people and 3. allow student to find a skill that he/she was good at and become an expert at it. After 1890, a forth purpose was introduced which was to marginalize the previous three purposes and have students become servants of corporate and political management.

I will admit that I am not an American teacher, but I am qualified to teach in New York state as I went to Teacher's College in Buffalo. And trust me, Canada is not much better although we do not have anything like NCLB, but some of us wonder if that is only a matter of time.

[Richard]

Originally Posted by Sigaba

Am I understanding correctly that your position is that technology can be a useful tool to good teachers but not a substitute for good teaching?

Yes. IMO we fail to fully understand the value of and give the proper recognition to those who successfully practice the 'art' of teaching...with or without assistive technology.

I ask because in the discussion of educational reform, I mention a professor at USC's School of Education. He has been savaged for arguing that the use of computers and other high tech tools do not automatically translate into a better learning environment. (The gist of his argument is that if motivated students fail to learn, teachers need to try other methods; if motivated students fail to learn, it is the fault of the teachers.)

I don't fully agree with that statement because a student may be motivated but may be incapable of grasping a particular subject or concept. For example, an Asperger Syndrome student with no overt signs of being such may fully comprehend the concrete concepts of accounting but fail to grasp the more theoretical concepts of higher levels of math or the nuanced concepts of poetry.

FWIW, I have found that teachers who genuinely practice the 'art' of teaching--by teaching in a way that is multi-sensory, cross-curricular, interesting, dynamic, and relevant--have few motivational or performance based failures.

However, in general, I am more-or-less in agreement with your professor's point-of-view.

Richard's $.02

[nmap]

Originally Posted by Richard

The multitudinous issues involved with 'standardized' testing and developmentally appropriate educational practice...especially at the younger grades and with the data produced in the last decade regarding brain research and learning.

(snip)

We can discuss these if you'd like...but it will take some time to do so as they are not simple matters and may not have definitive answers.

Richard's $.02

Sir, if you are ever inclined to post something on the issue of standardized tests - especially the high-stakes variety - I would very much like to read your thoughts and insights.

[jw74]

Originally Posted by Longstreet

I am unsure why everyone is upset about the state of the US education system. Given it was not created by educators or even teachers, but rather American industrialists. Unknown to most people, the US school system was put togther by the likes of Andrew Carnegie, J.P. Morgan, John Rockerfeller and Henry Ford. While these men were extraordinary in their fields, one would hardly consider them specialists in the area of education. One would also wonder just how concerned they were with having a highly educated population too. Educated people ask too many questions and cannot be easily swayed.

Before the Undustrial Revolution school had three main purposes which was to 1. make good citizens 2. make good people and 3. allow student to find a skill that he/she was good at and become an expert at it. After 1890, a forth purpose was introduced which was to marginalize the previous three purposes and have students become servants of corporate and political management.

I will admit that I am not an American teacher, but I am qualified to teach in New York state as I went to Teacher's College in Buffalo. And trust me, Canada is not much better although we do not have anything like NCLB, but some of us wonder if that is only a matter of time.

With all respect, what is your point? I dont see how the information you posted should stop me from being upset with our educational system.
Why am I upset? Because kids don't know their history, for one. If you don't know your history then you do not know your culture and when you don't share a culture, society breaks down. Is that not a good enough reason to be upset with our educational system? No one is advocating canada's system and I don't care who came up with the system, it is not producing leadership or innovation. It is a factory for making people feel good about themselves and when they get into the world and see that only their mother thinks they are special they will have to medicate to deal with the let down. But I digress..

[JJ_BPK]

Originally Posted by JJ_BPK

It's very sad,,

I get into deep discussions(read: heated arguments) with several friends that teach.

They are so against the Florida FCAT test,, don't think kids should be forced to learn any level of competence,, just let them pass,, so they needn't have to deal with them another year,, not passing stunts their social status & stigmatizes the child..

When I mention that New York has use the Regents test forever.. I get so much push back,, it embarrassing..

These are the same educators that refuse to learn how to use a PC,, as it "doesn't add" to the education process,, just hinders teaching flexability...

I truly believe the liberals have an agenda to dumb-up the world,, with the exception of the few that will rule(read: their kids)..

It's so much easer to lead when nobody else has a brain...

Thank God they can't out-source Mickey D's to India or Chine & Mexico,,

These people will always have a job opening and a place to spend their food stamps,, and vote for Barry........



AND thank God we have a few,, like Richard that fight the good fight...

Let me qualify my statements, so there is no mis-understanding.

Standardized Competency Tests: I think they are paramount in determining an individuals ability to advance in the education system. They are not meant to give everyone the warm fuzzies. Most people will know their standings before the test. By using multiple tests the educators can determine if the individual is absorbing the taught material,, and the individual can get an idea of their own future. If there is general failure across the specific class or school, then the onus is on the educators to improve the students standing.

My youngest is an prime example. She was enrolled in a state funded university lab school, where my wife worked. Each year all students were tested in the 3R's skills, plus any subject that they were testing a new curriculum, to determine if the course content met state requirements.

In the 2nd grade during a teacher-parent session, it was suggested that X may be a candidate for an LDA class as she was not advancing her reading skills.

We had her tested by the university to determine the appropriate PLAN. It was quickly determines that in 2nd grade she was operating at 3-4 grade math, and yes there was a visual acuity problem. If X was allowed to speak out-laud as she read she had 100% reading comp, if not comp fell to 25%. Don't ask me the why.. After a couple years of work with vision & vocal therapists, she when on to graduate college with a deg in engineering, with honors, 5yrs & four summers, 160 credit hrs. X is now in London on her 2nd international assignment as a systems designer.

I do not have a degree. During X's testing, I also ask to be tested. You are your parents genes. I also was found to an acuity problem that was never caught when I was young. To stroke my pride I joined MENSA. It didn't help my business opportunities, but I now understood why I always thought I was a little odd..


As to my comments about PC, I was referring to administrative usage, recording grades and general competence with a technology the our kids are experts with.

I will leave all discussions about the ability of technology ability to enhance a good teacher, as apposed to technology usurping the teachers basic responsibility..

I retired with 30 years as a systems designer for Big Blue. I know what a disaster poorly designed & implemented systems can do..

[Longstreet]

With all respect, what is your point? I dont see how the information you posted should stop me from being upset with our educational system.
Why am I upset? Because kids don't know their history, for one. If you don't know your history then you do not know your culture and when you don't share a culture, society breaks down. Is that not a good enough reason to be upset with our educational system? No one is advocating canada's system and I don't care who came up with the system, it is not producing leadership or innovation. It is a factory for making people feel good about themselves and when they get into the world and see that only their mother thinks they are special they will have to medicate to deal with the let down. But I digress..

Perhaps I did not word my response properly and if that is the case, my appologies. The point that I was trying to make is that I totaly agree with you that it is scary that students do not know their history or what would be considered basic knowledge. By pointing out the history of the US educational system, one is better able to understand the present state it is in. As you said yourself, if you do not know your history, how can a society survive? To put it simply, the educational system itself is flawed so therefore how can one expect that students will be educated properly?

I have a cartoon that I keep in my room that has two parents speaking with a teacher and the teacher says, "We provide your child's formative years a quiet, non-judgemental, non-competitive framework within which to grow. We also provide them with the names of a few therapists because once they graduate, they won't last two weeks in the real world." How true it is . . .