Go Back   Professional Soldiers ® > At Ease > The Soapbox

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 10-17-2008, 13:32   #1
The Reaper
Quiet Professional
 
The Reaper's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Free Pineland
Posts: 24,813
Some Surveys Indicate Tighter Presidential Race

All may not be as it seems.

TR

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB122420151553142939.html

Some Surveys Indicate Tighter Presidential Race
Differences in Predicting Outcome Result From How Pollsters Gauge Voter Turnout and Weight Party Affiliation
By NICK TIMIRAOS

A spate of widely publicized newspaper and network polls over the past week have shown Barack Obama opening a big lead over John McCain. But other surveys tell a somewhat different story, suggesting the presidential race is still close, and the Republican has even gained ground in recent days.

The reason for the divergence: Pollsters are facing new challenges this year, trying to gauge whether the electorate is changing, and how much.

Surveys giving Sen. Obama a large and growing lead tend to assume that a growing proportion of voters are Democrats, and a shrinking percentage Republicans. They also point to a big increase in turnout, particularly among voters under the age of 30. Surveys showing a closer race assume less change in party affiliation in particular.

To be sure, Sen. Obama leads in every national poll, and the Electoral College map appears to favor the Illinois senator, who campaigns this weekend in Republican-leaning states that all voted for President George W. Bush.

Real Clear Politics, a nonpartisan Web site that tracks major polls, reported Thursday that Sen. Obama led Sen. McCain by 49.5% to 42.7%, based on an average of 13 national surveys taken in the past week.

The polls feeding into that conclusion show a wide range, from a CBS/New York Times poll giving Sen. Obama a 14-point lead, to a Gallup poll showing the Illinois senator with just a two-point edge, equal to the margin of error.

A Los Angeles Times-Bloomberg poll this week shows the Illinois senator leading by nine points, while a Pew Research Center survey gives him a seven-point lead. But an Investor's Business Daily-TIPP poll shows Sen. Obama with a nearly four-point advantage. Recent polls by Rasmussen Reports and Zogby International show Sen. Obama leading by four and five points, respectively.

One Gallup poll shows the Democratic nominee's lead has shrunk since last week, falling to six points from 10. "Clearly, the race has tightened," says Frank Newport, editor in chief of the Gallup Daily.

The polls owe their wide variations, in part, to differences in how they determine likely voters. Gallup actually conducts two separate daily polls, one that includes all surveyed adults who say they will vote, and a second that is more restricted, using a decades-old methodology that determines "likely voters" in part by examining historical models on the types of voters who have showed up at the polls.

In the first Gallup sample, Sen. Obama leads Sen. McCain by six points. The second group yields the two-point gap. Both polls were conducted from Oct. 13-15.

Differences over how to accurately gauge party affiliation also help account for the discrepancies. Some pollsters argue polls should be statistically "weighted" so that their results achieve a partisan composition that reflects long-term national averages -- particularly if a poll shows that one party gets an unusually large share among the respondents, compared with past elections.

Pollster Scott Rasmussen, for example, weights current polls so that Democrats outnumber Republicans by a 39.3% to 33% margin, while pollster John Zogby adjusts polls so that Democrats account for around 38% of the electorate and Republicans, 36%. So even if a particular sample of calls shows different ratios, the pollsters adjust to fit that formula.

"What troubles me is when I see some of my colleagues have 27% of the respondents that are Republicans. That's just not America, period," says Mr. Zogby, whose polls have shown Sen. Obama with a lead ranging from two to six points this month. He argues that while party affiliation fluctuates over time, it doesn't change "day-to-day, and it never fluctuates by eight points in a short time period."

Some surveys suggest McCain has gained ground in recent days.
Other pollsters argue that polls should use whatever partisan mix results from a particular survey rather than arbitrarily establishing party affiliation weights. "How do you know that's right? I mean, they're making up numbers," says Susan Pinkus, who conducts the Los Angeles Times-Bloomberg poll, which isn't weighted. In this week's poll, the respondents were 34% Democratic and 26% Republican.

Both campaigns are running large vote turnout operations, and the Obama campaign is counting on unprecedented turnout from young voters, which further complicates efforts to determine likely voters. "It's more art than science in many cases. They're very difficult decisions to make," says Neil Newhouse, a Republican pollster who conducts the NBC News-Wall Street Journal poll.

Predicting turnout among young voters remains particularly challenging because many of those voters don't use landline phones that pollsters traditionally rely on to achieve a balanced sample. Pollsters have also struggled with accurately predicting minority turnout and how race could influence the current election.

Write to Nick Timiraos at nick.timiraos@wsj.com
__________________
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming; but who does actually strive to do the deeds; who knows great enthusiasms, the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat." - President Theodore Roosevelt, 1910

De Oppresso Liber 01/20/2025
The Reaper is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-17-2008, 14:37   #2
Scimitar
Area Commander
 
Scimitar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Hobbiton
Posts: 1,204
First time voter

So historically, how accurate are the polls in predicting the next president?

From this artical it seems that these guys are just guessing?

Historically, how many candidates have won with an 8 point lead at this point in the race?

Scimitar
__________________
"Do not pray for easy lives. Pray to be stronger men! Do not pray for tasks equal to your powers. Pray for power equal to your tasks."
-- Phillip Brooks

"A man's reach should exceed his grasp"
-- Robert Browning

"Hooah! Pushing thru the shit til Daisies grow, Sir"
-- Me

"Malo mori quam foedari"
"Death before Dishonour"
-- Family Coat-of-Arms Maxim

"Mārohirohi! Kia Kaha!"
"Be strong! Drive-on!"
-- Māori saying
Scimitar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-17-2008, 14:48   #3
Pete
Quiet Professional
 
Pete's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Fayetteville
Posts: 13,080
Those who....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scimitar View Post
....Historically, how many candidates have won with an 8 point lead at this point in the race?

Scimitar
Those who vote - or stay home - based on polls or talking heads deserve the govenment they get.

The talking heads are going to try and call a bunch of the eastern states early for Obama, making it look like he won. This will depress the turnout in the badly needed, for McCain, western states.

IIRC at this time in past races the polls have Ds out front.

VOTE!
Pete is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-17-2008, 16:06   #4
Patriot007
Guerrilla
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Free Pennsylvania
Posts: 138
Here's an interesting article by Ann Coulter with some quoted numbers that suggest Democrats have historically been given an advantage in the polls. Looks like an average of about 6 points.

http://www.humanevents.com/article.php?id=29050

Don't lose faith, every vote is worth it.
Patriot007 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-17-2008, 17:41   #5
LongTabSigO
Auxiliary
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Yorktown, Virginia
Posts: 77
Quote:
Originally Posted by Patriot007 View Post

Don't lose faith, every vote is worth it.
X2

Vote.
Make your case to all in view.
Pray.

America will weather the storm, however it goes.

Last edited by LongTabSigO; 10-17-2008 at 17:41. Reason: grammar check
LongTabSigO is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-17-2008, 19:24   #6
Sigaba
Area Commander
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Southern California
Posts: 4,478
Sir--

Thank you for this post.

A question that comes from this thread is: what realistic steps might be taken to limit the influence of polls on elections?

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Reaper View Post
All may not be as it seems.

TR
Sigaba is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-18-2008, 09:41   #7
rubberneck
Area Commander
 
rubberneck's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Buckingham, Pa.
Posts: 1,746
Hopefully we are looking at our generations Dewey vs Truman.
rubberneck is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-18-2008, 10:26   #8
afchic
Area Commander
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: IL
Posts: 1,644
I am not too concerned about polls themselves and what they say, I am concerned about what the Electoral College Map looks like at present. The last one I saw (from rasmussen) had Obama at 270 something and McCain at 163.
afchic is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-18-2008, 10:31   #9
greenberetTFS
Quiet Professional (RIP)
 
greenberetTFS's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Carriere,Ms.
Posts: 6,922
Quote:
Originally Posted by rubberneck View Post
Hopefully we are looking at our generations Dewey vs Truman.
It's a good point rubberneck is making.... They thought it was all over and Dewey had it in the bag.....The Chicago Tribune even claimed Dewey the winner! However,that following morning they found out that Truman had won....I remember it quite well.... Hopefully,that's what will happen here.

GB TFS
__________________
I believe that SF is a 'calling' - not too different from the calling missionaries I know received. I knew instantly that it was for me, and that I would do all I could to achieve it. Most others I know in SF experienced something similar. If, as you say, you HAVE searched and read, and you do not KNOW if this is the path for you --- it is not....
Zonie Diver

SF is a calling and it requires commitment and dedication that the uninitiated will never understand......
Jack Moroney

SFA M-2527, Chapter XXXVII

Last edited by greenberetTFS; 10-18-2008 at 13:50.
greenberetTFS is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-18-2008, 12:40   #10
HQ6
Guerrilla
 
HQ6's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Where the heart is
Posts: 257
Quote:
Originally Posted by afchic View Post
I am not too concerned about polls themselves and what they say, I am concerned about what the Electoral College Map looks like at present. The last one I saw (from rasmussen) had Obama at 270 something and McCain at 163.
Not that it really matters, but it was 260 to 163

I don't put stock in the electoral college polls anymore than I do the popular vote polls. They are basing these findings on the same data collected to determine the popular vote... which really is only as accurate as the population base from which you are gather data and methodology for collection. When, how, and from whom they are getting their information is all factors in these polls.
__________________
Moglie del Soldato
HQ6 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-19-2008, 04:56   #11
Richard
Quiet Professional
 
Richard's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: NorCal
Posts: 15,370
Watch this one; I don't think the election is as "in the bag" as the MSM and the DNC wants us to believe.

http://www.atlah.org/broadcast/ndnr09-03-08.html

In the MSM today, nobody wants to get into the topic of why a black American might not want to vote for BHO.

Richard's $.02
__________________
“Sometimes the Bible in the hand of one man is worse than a whisky bottle in the hand of (another)… There are just some kind of men who – who’re so busy worrying about the next world they’ve never learned to live in this one, and you can look down the street and see the results.” - To Kill A Mockingbird (Atticus Finch)

“Almost any sect, cult, or religion will legislate its creed into law if it acquires the political power to do so.” - Robert Heinlein
Richard is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-20-2008, 07:38   #12
The Reaper
Quiet Professional
 
The Reaper's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Free Pineland
Posts: 24,813
Okay, this is an informal observation of mine. Consider that the MSM and pollsters are calling NC a battleground state, and that it is leaning Obama by several points.

I was at the NC State Fair yesterday. The Dems and Repubs both had booths set up and were handing out stickers for their candidates. Again, bear in mind that this is informal, based strictly on attendees I saw at the NC State Fair on 20 Oct 08.

I counted throughout the day, and there were nine McCain stickers being worn for every Obama sticker I saw. Maybe the Obama supporters were all in Fayetteville hearing him speak, but there were many, many more stickers with "McCain-Palin", "Women for McCain", and "Democrats for McCain", as well as stickers that appeared to have been cut down to merely the word "McCain".

We went to the respective booths, there was relatively little interest at the Dem booth, but it took us several minutes to get through the crowd around the Repub table. When we asked the volunteers for McCain stickers, we were told that they were completely out, and had been since early in the day. Apparently, the cut down stickers were people who wanted McCain stickers, but the only ones left were "Democrats for McCain", and the people refused to wear them, so they cut off the top of the stickers and wore the McCain portion.

I do not know if this is representative, but given the MSM's liberal leanings, and the trend of weighting the polls toward a Dem bias, could it be that this election is not quite as big a runaway as anticipated, and the media is spinning it, hoping to suppress the Repub turnout?

I am not sure what is going on, but yesterday, I sure thought I was in a pretty Red state.

Confused in NC.

TR
__________________
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming; but who does actually strive to do the deeds; who knows great enthusiasms, the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat." - President Theodore Roosevelt, 1910

De Oppresso Liber 01/20/2025
The Reaper is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-20-2008, 08:05   #13
CoLawman
Area Commander
 
CoLawman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Colorado
Posts: 1,205
I am going to jump on TR's bandwagon from Colorado. We are going to the Palin rally today, which is at the Budweiser Event Center. Tickets are no longer available.

Joe Biden arrives in Greeley tomorrow and will be at UNC, tickets available and it is a much smaller venue.

Colorado too, is a battleground state with the polls leaning Obama. We will see. If I get some good pics I will post them.
__________________
We should seek by all means in our power to avoid war, by analysing possible causes, by trying to remove them, by discussion in a spirit of collaboration and good will.
Neville Chamberlain
CoLawman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-20-2008, 11:41   #14
Soft Target
"SF Loggie"
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 250
The observation about skewed respondents and not weighting is an important one. Many years ago, I took a "Research Methods" grad school course. I learned that "I can make any poll say anything you want if you're paying for it." Example the disproportionate number of the selected group versus others. I saw one over the weekend that said 400+ Dems contacted and about 120 Repubs and 40-some Independents were contacted. I wonder how that turned out.

Example: CNN poll that asked "Who do you blame for the financial crisis?". The choices were: A. the administration; B. banks; C. unqualified borrowers and D. Congress. (No all-of-the-above choice).
Soft Target is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-20-2008, 14:06   #15
JustinW20
Auxiliary
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: NorCal
Posts: 80
2004 all over again?

Something else to keep in mind is that polls showed Kerry ahead of Bush in the months leading up to the 2004 election. As a recovering poli-sci major, I have an innate distrust of polls...
__________________
"A "pacifist male" is a contradiction in terms. Most self-described "pacifists" are not pacific; they simply assume false colors. When the wind changes, they hoist the Jolly Roger. "

- Robert Heinlein

“To do what ought to be done but what would not have been done unless I did it, I thought to be my duty.”

- Robert Morrision
JustinW20 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT -6. The time now is 15:58.



Copyright 2004-2022 by Professional Soldiers ®
Site Designed, Maintained, & Hosted by Hilliker Technologies