05-26-2004, 19:14
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#1
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Quiet Professional
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Free Pineland
Posts: 24,780
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Here We Go!
Army Times
May 31, 2004
Pg. 54
Women Unfairly Denied Shot At Ranger School
By Victoria A. Hudson
Combat service and combat service support soldiers soon may attend Ranger School, yet the majority may never serve as Rangers. The idea is to strengthen and better prepare soldiers for leading under fire, regardless of their military occupation specialty assignments.
Just one thing: No girls allowed.
Justification for the gender exclusion is that only support soldiers assigned to a battalion-level combined-arms task force, which excludes female soldiers, would be eligible.
Yet, the ambush of the 507th Maintenance Company in Nasiriyah, Iraq, is identified as a reason why we need more combat-savvy soldiers. You may recall there were women who fought, died and were captured in that ambush.
Duty in Iraq and Afghanistan has shown that women do fight the enemy. Women are subjected to hostile fire and must react to attack. Women accompany combat patrols, yet there remains an earlier-century gender bias that dictates women should not be trained for combat.
If non-combat arms soldiers are to attend Ranger School, they should include female soldiers.
If we are to ensure all soldiers have a greater warrior ethos, that can’t stop based upon gender. I don’t advocate assigning women to the infantry, but if it truly is “important to the warrior ethos that we engage as many soldiers as we can with the Army’s best school in combat leadership,” as Command Sgt. Maj. Michael Kelso of the Infantry Center was quoted in the April 12 issue of Army Times, then there is no justification to exclude women.
After all, there are some branches with women who are a bit closer to combat possibilities than the cooks, clerks and grease monkeys of the rear area. Pardon me, the transporters and signal jocks of the combat task force, military police, psychological operations and civil affairs, for example, come to mind. Who will deny these troops are out on the front line, if not in front of the front at times?
If the issue is logistics and plain discomfort about mixing genders in training, then hold a women-only training cycle.
Given current accounts of soldier-on-soldier sexual assault, putting the stress of mixed genders in such a demanding environment as Ranger School is likely not a scenario any commander wants.
The resentment of men in the course itself would be a significant distraction for all involved, creating an environment of hostility both unprofessional and inappropriate.
But that is not sufficient reason to deny women access to training that could very well save soldiers’ lives and enable them to better lead in combat.
Maybe it’s just too hard to swallow that some women would wear the coveted Ranger Tab. Fine. While we’re at it, take the tab off those men who are not, or who never have been assigned, as Rangers.
The warrior ethos is not something to pick and choose by gender. All soldiers must have this quality ingrained and reinforced. If non-combat arms soldiers who will not be assigned as Rangers have access to the highest quality of combat leadership training, then that training should include all soldiers.
Tradition should not deny soldiers access to training that is important to their development and fulfilling their responsibility to their subordinates. We are soldiers in the 21st century fighting a 21st-century war. We are all subject to the enemy and there is no safe haven for anyone because of gender. Gender, therefore, should not be a factor in determining who has access to the best training in combat leadership we have to offer.
The writer is a Reserve military police major with 24 years of service. She has mobilized four times, most recently completing a year with the U.S. Transportation Command as a joint anti-terrorism officer supporting operations Enduring Freedom and Iraqi Freedom. She is executive officer of the 6405th Reinforcement Training Unit, Intelligence and Security.
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"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming; but who does actually strive to do the deeds; who knows great enthusiasms, the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat." - President Theodore Roosevelt, 1910
De Oppresso Liber 01/20/2025
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The Reaper is offline
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05-26-2004, 19:34
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#2
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Area Commander
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Midwest
Posts: 7,107
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Good grief, here we go is right. Next thing you know they'll want in on SF.
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My Heroes wear camouflage.
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Gypsy is offline
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05-26-2004, 19:42
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#3
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Quiet Professional
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Free Pineland
Posts: 24,780
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Already happened, the door was closed after one.
She failed and complained that she was discriminated against, so they basically gave it to her.
Now that the SFQC is an MOS producing course, it shouldn't happen again till they decide to let women into SF.
TR
__________________
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming; but who does actually strive to do the deeds; who knows great enthusiasms, the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat." - President Theodore Roosevelt, 1910
De Oppresso Liber 01/20/2025
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The Reaper is offline
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05-26-2004, 19:54
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#4
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Area Commander
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Midwest
Posts: 7,107
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Ahh the D-word. I have little regard for women that claim that tired old stance. I'm not really "old fashioned" but there are some places women just don't belong.
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Gypsy is offline
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05-26-2004, 20:03
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#5
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Auxiliary
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Perpetually TDY
Posts: 97
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My dad once knew a Ranger who had a plaque on the wall of his office that said,"No amount of politics will ever make a 90lb. woman do anything but sit on a 100lb. ruck."
I always thought that was funny.
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Brother Rat is offline
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05-26-2004, 20:28
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#6
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Quiet Professional
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I really do not know what to say...I am angered and speachless at the lack of awareness that some people have about the training that WARRIORS undergo.
This isn't a simple arguement of lowering the standards on the PT test or spatial requirements for hygiene...this training involves arduous physical stamina and ability.
This is strictly a badge hunting / "barrier bending" attempt by yet another part time "expert" on the military.
Once the course is attended...then what? There will be little to no practical application of skills...no sustainment in the motor pool or the PAC office.
The Army used to send support bubbas to school...in addition to higher washout rates (which translates into wasted instructor / student time...money...effort...quality of product due to distractors) soft skill grads had little to no way to employ their knowledge...so it wasted away, forgotten, underutilized.
A shameful example of a slot taken up by a guy who didn't need to be there...when some other bubba was humping the line or doing his best as a non tabbed fire team leader.
These columnists (military and otherwise) talk of "Warrior Ethos" without ever putting a bullet downrange aimed at another human being. They talk of "being a true warrior" and have never had the hair on their neck stand on end as they hid from a patrolling enemy, gripped their knife handle, and held their breath...every drop of sweat falling to the jungle floor sounding like a bass drum in their own ears. They are experts in modern warfare, but have never walked a pair of boots to the point where the soles fell off, literally walked the ass out of a pair of BDU pants, or put their digits into their buddys bloody body to save his life.
This major can kiss my ass with her 24 years in the reserves and 4 "mobilizations" .
OK...so I found some stuff to say...let me end it with calling her a stupid bitch...
Stupid bitch 
Eagle
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Primum non Nocere
"I have hung out in dangerous places a lot over the years, from combat zones to biker bars, and it is the weak, the unaware, or those looking for it, that usually find trouble.
Ain't no one getting out of this world alive. All you can do is try to have some choice in the way you go. Prepare yourself (and your affairs), and when your number is up, die on your feet fighting rather than on your knees. And make the SOBs pay dearly."
The Reaper-3 Sep 04
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Eagle5US is offline
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05-26-2004, 20:47
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#7
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Quiet Professional
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: LA
Posts: 1,653
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Quote:
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the ambush of the 507th Maintenance Company in Nasiriyah, Iraq
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Big difference in my book in being ambushed in a convoy and being an offensive hunter-killer. From what I understand, there were similar convoys run throughout Vietnam and no truck drivers were sent to MACV Recondo or Ranger School.
Maybe Ms. Reserve military police major with 24 years of service. executive officer of the 6405th Don't Ask Don't Tell Reinforcement Training Unit, Intelligence and Security, should worry about training her own fookin' truck drivers instead of pawning them off on the Ranger School cadre so she will have someone else to blame when they get killed. Basically what she is saying, to me, is "I can't train my own troops, I need somebody else to do it for me."
Ranger School, for those that don't know, is designed to train small unit leaders (squad and platoon) in small unit infantry tactics. Not to train truck drivers.
I fail to see how learning to patrol and set up a patrol base is going to help react in a convoy ambush.
If I was her CSM, you'd be able to hear me kicking her ass still and yet for those assinine comments. Somebody needs to lock her heels up like the nuts on the Golden Gate Bridge.
Stupid Bitch
Ma'am
__________________
Somewhere a True Believer is training to kill you. He is training with minimal food or water, in austere conditions, training day and night. The only thing clean on him is his weapon and he made his web gear. He doesn't worry about what workout to do - his ruck weighs what it weighs, his runs end when the enemy stops chasing him. This True Believer is not concerned about 'how hard it is;' he knows either he wins or dies. He doesn't go home at 17:00, he is home.
He knows only The Cause.
Still want to quit?
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NousDefionsDoc is offline
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05-26-2004, 20:53
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#8
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Guerrilla
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: North Carolina
Posts: 162
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You guys covered every angle, and I can't really add anything more except for a " What a stupid bitch..." 
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Footmobile is offline
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05-26-2004, 20:54
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#9
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Quiet Professional
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: LA
Posts: 1,653
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Quote:
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These columnists (military and otherwise) talk of "Warrior Ethos" without ever putting a bullet downrange aimed at another human being.
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Damn straight. Good reason to put Hand to Gland and Spirit of the Bayonet Training back in the PO fookin' I.
Fox has an Air Force General Colonel on as an analyst for the war in Iraq and the 'Stan. What the hell does the AF (no offense to the Air Force pukes on the board) know about counter-insurgency/counter-terrorism. Hell, Jimbo knows more about it than some AF General. 
Sorry ladies, that dog won't hunt.
__________________
Somewhere a True Believer is training to kill you. He is training with minimal food or water, in austere conditions, training day and night. The only thing clean on him is his weapon and he made his web gear. He doesn't worry about what workout to do - his ruck weighs what it weighs, his runs end when the enemy stops chasing him. This True Believer is not concerned about 'how hard it is;' he knows either he wins or dies. He doesn't go home at 17:00, he is home.
He knows only The Cause.
Still want to quit?
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NousDefionsDoc is offline
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05-26-2004, 20:56
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#10
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Quiet Professional
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: LA
Posts: 1,653
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Oh yeah, I almost forgot - stupid bitch.
__________________
Somewhere a True Believer is training to kill you. He is training with minimal food or water, in austere conditions, training day and night. The only thing clean on him is his weapon and he made his web gear. He doesn't worry about what workout to do - his ruck weighs what it weighs, his runs end when the enemy stops chasing him. This True Believer is not concerned about 'how hard it is;' he knows either he wins or dies. He doesn't go home at 17:00, he is home.
He knows only The Cause.
Still want to quit?
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NousDefionsDoc is offline
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05-26-2004, 21:23
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#11
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Quiet Professional
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: DFW Texas Area
Posts: 4,741
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quote:
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the ambush of the 507th Maintenance Company in Nasiriyah, Iraq
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Hell, why don't they spend more time on BASIC Land Nav so's they know WTFTA !! If they'd have gone where they were supposed to have gone in the first place, NO PROBLEM !!! With GPS today, there is no excuse for that kind of F-Up !!
__________________
Martin sends.
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Ambush Master is offline
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05-26-2004, 21:41
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#12
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Consigliere
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Free Pineland (at last)
Posts: 8,767
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Stupid bitch.
LOL
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Roguish Lawyer is offline
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05-26-2004, 21:41
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#13
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Gun Pilot
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Iowa and New Mexico
Posts: 2,143
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Quote:
Originally posted by Eagle5US
I really do not know what to say...I am angered and speachless at the lack of awareness that some people have about the training that WARRIORS undergo.
This isn't a simple arguement of lowering the standards on the PT test or spatial requirements for hygiene...this training involves arduous physical stamina and ability.
This is strictly a badge hunting / "barrier bending" attempt by yet another part time "expert" on the military.
Once the course is attended...then what? There will be little to no practical application of skills...no sustainment in the motor pool or the PAC office.
The Army used to send support bubbas to school...in addition to higher washout rates (which translates into wasted instructor / student time...money...effort...quality of product due to distractors) soft skill grads had little to no way to employ their knowledge...so it wasted away, forgotten, underutilized.
A shameful example of a slot taken up by a guy who didn't need to be there...when some other bubba was humping the line or doing his best as a non tabbed fire team leader.
These columnists (military and otherwise) talk of "Warrior Ethos" without ever putting a bullet downrange aimed at another human being. They talk of "being a true warrior" and have never had the hair on their neck stand on end as they hid from a patrolling enemy, gripped their knife handle, and held their breath...every drop of sweat falling to the jungle floor sounding like a bass drum in their own ears. They are experts in modern warfare, but have never walked a pair of boots to the point where the soles fell off, literally walked the ass out of a pair of BDU pants, or put their digits into their buddys bloody body to save his life.
This major can kiss my ass with her 24 years in the reserves and 4 "mobilizations" .
OK...so I found some stuff to say...let me end it with calling her a stupid bitch...
Stupid bitch
Eagle
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J:
Good post!
Terry
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E7-CW3-direct commission VN
B model gunship pilot 65-66 Soc Trang, Cobra Pilot 68-69-70 Can Tho Life member 101st Airborne Association
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CPTAUSRET is offline
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05-26-2004, 23:19
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#14
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Guest
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Can't imagine
No matter how hard I try, I cannot picture in my mind a woman accomplishing the same things in Ranger school. Maybe my problem is with the term 'woman'.
Roycroft201
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05-27-2004, 00:14
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#15
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Quiet Professional
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Rockies
Posts: 40
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If there is to be so much gender equality why don't we start with evening the PT standards first, then worry about whether or not women should be given slots to Ranger school. 
Stupid bitch.
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ThinAir is offline
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