05-20-2004, 18:42
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#1
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Consigliere
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Free Pineland (at last)
Posts: 8,767
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Delta Accused of Prisoner Abuse in Iraq
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5024068/
New front in Iraq detainee abuse scandal?
NBC News exclusive: Delta Force subject of investigation; Pentagon official denies abuse
By Campbell Brown
Correspondent
NBC News
Updated: 8:10 p.m. ET May 20, 2004
BAGHDAD - With attention focused on the seven soldiers charged with abuse at the Abu Ghraib prison, U.S. military and intelligence officials familiar with the situation tell NBC News the Army’s elite Delta Force is now the subject of a Pentagon inspector general investigation into abuse against detainees.
The target is a top-secret site near Baghdad’s airport. The battlefield interrogation facility known as the “BIF” is pictured in satellite photos.
According to two top U.S. government sources, it is the scene of the most egregious violations of the Geneva Conventions in all of Iraq’s prisons. A place where the normal rules of interrogation don’t apply, Delta Force’s BIF only holds Iraqi insurgents and suspected terrorists — but not the most wanted among Saddam’s lieutenants pictured on the deck of cards.
These sources say the prisoners there are hooded from the moment they are captured. They are kept in tiny dark cells. And in the BIF’s six interrogation rooms, Delta Force soldiers routinely drug prisoners, hold a prisoner under water until he thinks he’s drowning, or smother them almost to suffocation.
In Washington Thursday evening, a senior Pentagon official denied allegations of prisoner abuse at Battlefield Interrogation Facilities operated by Delta Force in Iraq. And he said the tactics described in this report are not used in those facilities.
All of those practices would be violations of the Geneva Conventions. The conventions do not apply to stateless terrorists — the so-called non-enemy combatants like al-Qaida suspects caught by the United States in Afghanistan.
But as Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld has made clear, the Geneva Conventions do apply in Iraq.
“Iraq's a nation. The United States is a nation. The Geneva Conventions applied. They have applied every single day from the outset,” Rumsfeld has said.
So, does Rumfeld know about the BIF and what goes on there?
Several top U.S. military and intelligence sources say yes, and that he, through other top Pentagon officials, directed the U.S. head of intelligence in Iraq, Gen. Barbara Fast, and others to bring some of the methods used at the BIF to prisons like Abu Ghraib, in hopes of getting better intelligence from Iraqi detainees.
The Pentagon’s top spokesman in Iraq says the military will not comment on the BIF or what goes on there. He was unwilling to even confirm or deny its existence. Gen. Fast declined our request for an interview due to the ongoing prison abuse investigation, one that has so far yielded charges against only the military’s lowest ranks.
Several top U.S. military and intelligence sources say yes, and that he, through other top Pentagon officials, directed the U.S. head of intelligence in Iraq, Gen. Barbara Fast, and others to bring some of the methods used at the BIF to prisons like Abu Ghraib, in hopes of getting better intelligence from Iraqi detainees.
The Pentagon’s top spokesman in Iraq says the military will not comment on the BIF or what goes on there. He was unwilling to even confirm or deny its existence. Gen. Fast declined our request for an interview due to the ongoing prison abuse investigation, one that has so far yielded charges against only the military’s lowest ranks.
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Roguish Lawyer is offline
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05-20-2004, 18:55
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#2
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Asset
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: camp hovey, south korea
Posts: 46
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interesting post...... Thank you
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Denny is offline
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05-20-2004, 19:04
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#3
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Quiet Professional
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Free Pineland
Posts: 24,780
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Did they take their time sawing any of the prisoners' heads off while four Amereicans sat on them and chanted "Praise God"?
If not, I really don't care to hear any more whining.
TR
__________________
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming; but who does actually strive to do the deeds; who knows great enthusiasms, the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat." - President Theodore Roosevelt, 1910
De Oppresso Liber 01/20/2025
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The Reaper is offline
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05-20-2004, 19:10
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#4
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JAWBREAKER
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Gulf coast
Posts: 1,905
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Re: Delta Accused of Prisoner Abuse in Iraq
Quote:
Originally posted by Roguish Lawyer
Delta Force’s BIF only holds Iraqi insurgents and suspected terrorists
These sources say the prisoners there are hooded from the moment they are captured. They are kept in tiny dark cells. And in the BIF’s six interrogation rooms, Delta Force soldiers routinely drug prisoners, hold a prisoner under water until he thinks he’s drowning, or smother them almost to suffocation.
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Based on the "clientele", it sounds like appropriate accomodations are being provided by our Soldiers.
Last edited by Sacamuelas; 05-20-2004 at 19:12.
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Sacamuelas is offline
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05-20-2004, 20:33
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#5
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Quiet Professional
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: DFW Texas Area
Posts: 4,741
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Delta ?? Delta ??
Was it the Plumbing guys or the Fucking Airlines ??? Those Airline Union guys are pretty tough !!!
__________________
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Ambush Master is offline
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05-20-2004, 21:05
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#6
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Gun Pilot
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Iowa and New Mexico
Posts: 2,143
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As I stated in another thread, I have witnessed far worse than this, the interrogations (in question) were not conducted by American troops...But they undoubtedly saved American lives.
Terry
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E7-CW3-direct commission VN
B model gunship pilot 65-66 Soc Trang, Cobra Pilot 68-69-70 Can Tho Life member 101st Airborne Association
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CPTAUSRET is offline
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05-21-2004, 04:54
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#7
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Guerrilla Chief
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Fayetteville
Posts: 796
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"NBC News Exclusive"? They are incorrect; their "source" is wrong.
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Radar Rider is offline
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05-21-2004, 06:39
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#8
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Guerrilla
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: OCONUS
Posts: 415
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Quote:
Originally posted by The Reaper
Did they take their time sawing any of the prisoners' heads off while four Amereicans sat on them and chanted "Praise God"?
If not, I really don't care to hear any more whining.
TR
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Sir, as you well know this point is sadly missed by everyone but a few Americans.
Signed, one of the minority
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CommoGeek is offline
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05-21-2004, 07:01
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#9
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Bladesmith to the Quiet Professionals
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Oregon, Land of the Silver Grey Sunsets
Posts: 3,879
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Quote:
Originally posted by Radar Rider
"NBC News Exclusive"? They are incorrect; their "source" is wrong.
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That doesn't have anything to do with splashing a story around the globe.
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Bill Harsey is offline
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05-21-2004, 09:51
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#10
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Quiet Professional
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Williamston, SC
Posts: 2,018
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Time to be unpopular again but. . . .
IMHO barbaric, immoral and disgusting ations will never be a justification for my acting likewise. If we are to act like the enemy why are we fighting?
Abuse and torture are not interrogation. In the past our csoldiers were tortured and brain-washed by enemy governments for the purpose of getting FALSE confessions and other statements which the enemy wanted. Not to gain intelligence. Statements gained under duress are subject to doubt. A scared individual will give you what he thinks you want. This falls right into our own "Code of Conduct". After 48 hours do or say anything necessary to stay alive and healthy - short of giving up your fellow prisoners.
I don't know much about Delta and neither do many others. They are shrouded in mystery but I fail to believe BIF would be one of their functions.
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QRQ 30 is offline
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05-21-2004, 10:16
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#11
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Gun Pilot
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Iowa and New Mexico
Posts: 2,143
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Quote:
Originally posted by QRQ 30
Time to be unpopular again but. . . .
IMHO barbaric, immoral and disgusting ations will never be a justification for my acting likewise. If we are to act like the enemy why are we fighting?
Abuse and torture are not interrogation. In the past our csoldiers were tortured and brain-washed by enemy governments for the purpose of getting FALSE confessions and other statements which the enemy wanted. Not to gain intelligence. Statements gained under duress are subject to doubt. A scared individual will give you what he thinks you want. This falls right into our own "Code of Conduct". After 48 hours do or say anything necessary to stay alive and healthy - short of giving up your fellow prisoners.
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QRQ 30:
I do not presume that you are taking an unpopular stance...The incident I alluded to took place in the VN Delta probably late 65, the Vietnamese had just taken 3 prisoners on a large op near Vi Tanh, Bac Lieu, or it may have been near the U Minh forest (old brain cells) they got one of these guys to give up a huge weapons cache. Undoubtedly it was morally wrong (and I was apalled at the time), but it without a doubt saved American lives. Is this morally justifiable? Probably not...
Not long after this incident I participated in a raid to rescue Nick Rowe, we did not get him but we got close enough that he heard the battle, but that's a topic unto itself.
Terry
__________________
E7-CW3-direct commission VN
B model gunship pilot 65-66 Soc Trang, Cobra Pilot 68-69-70 Can Tho Life member 101st Airborne Association
Last edited by CPTAUSRET; 05-21-2004 at 10:34.
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CPTAUSRET is offline
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05-23-2004, 12:45
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#12
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Asset
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: UK.
Posts: 3
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Quote:
Originally posted by The Reaper
Did they take their time sawing any of the prisoners' heads off while four Amereicans sat on them and chanted "Praise God"?
If not, I really don't care to hear any more whining.
TR
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I don't post much here but I completely agree with you on that Sir. I've said that to so many people recently, I've lost count.
Those Soldiers who abused the detainees did wrong but when comparing it to what those fanatics did to poor Nick Berg (which we hardly hear anything of anymore), it really is child's play.
If anything, it highlights media bias towards the USA.
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Anakin is offline
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05-23-2004, 13:10
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#13
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Quiet Professional
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Williamston, SC
Posts: 2,018
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Quote:
Originally posted by Anakin
I don't post much here but I completely agree with you on that Sir. I've said that to so many people recently, I've lost count.
Those Soldiers who abused the detainees did wrong but when comparing it to what those fanatics did to poor Nick Berg (which we hardly hear anything of anymore), it really is child's play.
If anything, it highlights media bias towards the USA.
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I agree to the media bias but we seem to be somewhat inconsistant in our judgements.
When some soldiers are found to be abusing EPWs we say that it is only a small percentage of soldiers and not representative of the overall mentality. I agree!!
However, 5 terrorists go on TV and publicly execute an american. Now we say that it is Iraq as a whole and they all deserve what they get.
Is it right to have it both ways? Which of those five terrorists have ever been in U.S. Custody?
Baghdad is comparable in size and population to Chicago. When some homeboys in Cabrini Towers go wild and shoot up a few cops should the LEO go to the Cook County jail and proceed to abuse all of the prisoners in custody?
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QRQ 30 is offline
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05-23-2004, 14:30
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#14
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Auxiliary
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Canada, when I have nowhere else to be.
Posts: 91
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Without prejudice:
I see two things that continually jump out at me during the articles and reports on prisoner treatment.
1. It is unclear if the treatment in each case is
a) sanctioned and calculated
b) non-sanctioned, but deliberatly ignored by leadership
c) is non-sanctioned undisciplined abuse discovered too late
There have probably been cases of each of the above, but it is still unclear as to what the distribution is, and what standards and limits are set on category A, if any, which bring me to my next point.
2. It has not been made clear (at least I don't have a clear picture) on where the U.S. government stands on prisoner treatment for non-soldiers. Certainly the Geneva convention is respected at least on paper, and probably in reality for the vast majority of cases, where it applies. Where it does not apply is the big gray zone. I have heard commentary that the Geneva convention does not apply to terrorists, insurgents, guerrillas, etc. IF that is true, what standards for prisoner treatment are applied? Are there any standards for suspected terrorists, or is this all an open field?
Are there any standards for establishing if a person is a "suspected terrorist" with usefull information subject to harmful interrogation methods, or if they are just a common armed criminal involved in looting or what ever and subsequently arrested.
If you aren't a terrorist, but know terrorists (your brother, your son, your father, your friend, etc) , are you also fair game for harmful methods of interrogation, or are you considered off limits to anything beyond normal investigative interviewing? Again, the line is very fuzzy.
The media's principle failure in my opinion has been in the area of identifying the standards that are supposed to be in place, and measuring the practices against the standards. They are too focussed on showing ugly photos and creating emotional reactions rather than intelligent ones. That is to be expected.
What has been especially absent is clarity from the U.S. government on the standards in place, and the mechanisms for supporting compliance.
At the end of the day, torture for sadistic reasons, or vengeance, are unprofessional, and the perpetrators deserve to stand before a judge in my opinion.
On the other hand, I can be more sympathetic to torture that is sanctioned, calculated, and very carefully metred out with a clear purpose and reasonable expectation of positive results.
I just wish the U.S goverment (and other nations) would either define and ban torture outright in all cases without exception and make sure the leadership acts to ensure compliance by all involved, or, if torture is a needed and valuable tool, have the integrity to stand up and say, "Yes, we use and support the use of prisoner torture in specific cases, and here are our standards for the application of torture, which we endevour to ensure all our practicioners adhere to."
Maybe I just like things to be a little too clean cut.
Last edited by Maple Flag; 05-23-2004 at 14:33.
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Maple Flag is offline
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10-29-2004, 12:32
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#15
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Quiet Professional
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: LA
Posts: 1,653
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Quote:
These sources say the prisoners there are hooded from the moment they are captured. They are kept in tiny dark cells. And in the BIF’s six interrogation rooms, Delta Force soldiers routinely drug prisoners, hold a prisoner under water until he thinks he’s drowning, or smother them almost to suffocation.
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Torture? Sounds like CDQC or BUD/S or the training I will get yelled at for mentioning to me, except for the drugs.
To hell with them.
__________________
Somewhere a True Believer is training to kill you. He is training with minimal food or water, in austere conditions, training day and night. The only thing clean on him is his weapon and he made his web gear. He doesn't worry about what workout to do - his ruck weighs what it weighs, his runs end when the enemy stops chasing him. This True Believer is not concerned about 'how hard it is;' he knows either he wins or dies. He doesn't go home at 17:00, he is home.
He knows only The Cause.
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NousDefionsDoc is offline
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