Two SF questions

[Retired W4]

After researching two subjects close to me, I now must roll the dice and post the questions here. I suspect the reason I haven't found my answers yet is because the info may still be classified. If that is the case feel free to slap the crap out of me and close the thread. I will understand.

1. I am looking for information of SF involvement in activities leading up to the "Cambodian Campaign" very early in 1970. John Shaw's book devotes one sentence to SF.

2. One of those "crazy uncles" on my wife's side tells of initial airborne training in Germany (not Ft. Benning) in 1960/1961 prior to being sent to Laos with SF. Could this be true?

Ok, let the evisceration begin.

[CSB]

Thank you for your service Mr. W4. You were probably doing a high hover in UH-1B's when we were in kindergarden. These are reasonable questions, and I'll let some of the Nam veterans answer question one.

As to question two, I can state with authority that the Basic Airborne Course (BAC) has been taught under authority of the USA Infantry School by SF units on a case by case basis, outside of Ft. Benning, GA but under their Program of Instruction (POI). That POI included a "mobilization" training schedule that reduced the course to ten calendar days (typically two weeks, allowing for a weekend). "Tower Week" was eliminated, primarily due to the absence of 250' towers outside of Ft. Benning.

In the late 1950's and until the 101st Airborne Division deployed to Viet Nam in the mid 1960's, the 101st Airborne Division ran a "jump school" at Ft. Campbell, KY.

At recently as 1978~1979 the 10th SF Group (then at Ft. Devens, MA) ran a "jump school" at Fort Devens to get soldiers from their counterpart Reserve SF Group (the 11th SF Group, USAR) jump qualified during a single two week Army Reserve "summer camp." I was in the 11th SF at the time, and some of my troops went through the course.

So "I went to jump training at Bad Toelz, Germany in the 1960's" does not ping my "bullshit" meter at all.

[lksteve]

Originally Posted by CSB

So "I went to jump training at Bad Toelz, Germany in the 1960's" does not ping my "bullshit" meter at all.

Here's a little historical perspective. It could be true.

http://www.usarmygermany.com/Units/H...20ABN.htm#ODA7

[Retired W4]

Thank you to both CSB and lksteve for the input, and for your service to our country. I appreciate your insights.

As to the Cambodia question, I spent a couple weeks flying personnel from the SF pad in Bien Hoa to various villages across the fence, all while President Nixon, who was being hounded by the press, continued to deny the presence of US combat troops in Cambodia. The lack of information of this phase of the operation baffles me today.

[SFS0AVN]

Yes, the 10th sent some of their people to Schongau for jump school in the 50s and early 60s.
I went to jump school in Ft Bragg 1962.

[f50lrrp]

The 8th Infantry Division (509th ABN) ran a Basic Parachute Course at Wiesbaden, Germany for a couple of decades, too.

[mark46th]

W-4, What did your "Crazy Uncle" do in the army? His MOS? The 1960-61 time frame coincides with "White Star", the beginning of SF work in Laos. Bull Simons was the first commander, from 1961-62. If he wasn't SF, he may have had some specialty that a non-SF type could cover...

[Richard]

Originally Posted by Retired W4

One of those "crazy uncles" on my wife's side tells of initial airborne training in Germany (not Ft. Benning) in 1960/1961 prior to being sent to Laos with SF. Could this be true?

The 11th ABN was stationed in the Munich/Augsburg area during that time and they had their own jump school--just like the 82nd and 101st. An interesting piece of trivia was the CCF for the 11th ABN and units around Munich was the main prison/administration building at Dachau which houses the museum display.

Richard

[SFS0AVN]

Originally Posted by Richard

The 11th ABN was stationed in the Munich/Augsburg area during that time and they had their own jump school--just like the 82nd and 101st. An interesting piece of trivia was the CCF for the 11th ABN and units around Munich was the main prison/administration building at Dachau which houses the museum display.

Richard

The 11th ABN was Deactivated in 1957. 1st Bd Abn, 8th Infantry Div was in Augsburg in the 60s.

[Richard]

Originally Posted by SFS0AVN

The 11th ABN was Deactivated in 1957. 1st Bd Abn, 8th Infantry Div was in Augsburg in the 60s.

Actually 1958, I think, but they left an ABN BDE Battle Group. It may have then become part of the 8th ID vic Mainz, but I think it was a part of the 24th ID in Augsburg first. Wasn't that the world of the pentamic Army structure at that time and weren't there were several ABN Battle Groups in Europe? Some of the guys like Ed Flint and Ernie Tabata (who's still at Bragg I think) out there could fill us in on those--they were both in the 11th and Ernie was in the 8th IDs ABN BG. Ed also spent some time in the CCF at Dachau.

Richard

[skydoc60A5G]

I was a 60W on the Detox Unit at the 56th Gen Hosp in Bad Kreuznach from '73-'74 when the 8th ID 1/509th Abn Inf Bn at Mainz moved to Vicenza with SETAF. Not sure where they had their jump training...don't thnk I thought to ask at the time...Just assumed it must have been the Ft. Benning School for Boys....Met my first ABN qualified Doc when he was transfered to the hospital as a GMO..He had been one of their Battalion surgeons...

[f50lrrp]

1958 - 1973
(Source: Annual Historical Report, 1958-59, HQ USAREUR)
The Restationing of the Airborne Battle Groups

On 1 July 1958, the 11th Airborne Division was redesignated as the 24th Infantry Division. The division remained responsible for providing the airborne elements of Army Task Force 201, consisting of two airborne battle groups, a composite artillery battalion, and a quartermaster parachute company. To enable the 24th Division to comply with this requirement, it was organized as a composite division with a strength of 14,311, whereas the standard infantry division was composed of 13,580 personnel.

At the time of the Lebanon operation, when part of ATF 201 was deployed to the Middle East and the 24th Division was reduced by over 2,200 personnel, plans were prepared to shift the burden of supporting the task force to the 8th Infantry Division, which was earmarked as the reserve division. The potential reduction in the combat capability of the reserve was considered as the lesser of two evils. But the entire problem would be eliminated if the Department of the Army approved General Hodes' recommendation to transfer the primary Army responsibility for supporting contingency plans in the Middle East to the Strategic Army Corps in the United States. However, the Department of the Army not only refused to relieve USAREUR of its Middle East support mission, but also indicated that the planned gyroscope of the 504th and 505th Airborne Battle Groups could not be canceled.

As a result, the 8th Infantry Division was reorganized as a composite division on 1 December 1958, so that it could assume the airborne support responsibility hitherto held by the 24th Infantry Division. On 21 December 1958, the 504th Airborne Battle Group of the 8th Division replaced the 503rd Abn BG of the 24th Division as Force BRAVO and one month later the 505th Abn BG of the 8th Division relieved the 187th Abn BG of the 24th Division as Force ALPHA. On 5 February 1959, the 24th Infantry Division was reorganized as a standard infantry division.

[greenberetTFS]

I was stationed at Sheridan kascern in Augsburg with the 505 Abn Battle Group when the 11th was deactived in 1958....Airborne personal wore the tab above the new division patch. I left 3 months later so I'm not sure what they did about the remaining airborne qualifed guys......

[Retired W4]

Originally Posted by mark46th

W-4, What did your "Crazy Uncle" do in the army? His MOS? The 1960-61 time frame coincides with "White Star", the beginning of SF work in Laos. Bull Simons was the first commander, from 1961-62. If he wasn't SF, he may have had some specialty that a non-SF type could cover...

Mark, from the limited discussions I had with him he apparently went to Gemany as a straight leg. He then volunteered to go through airborne training and other things in preparation for Laos. He claims to be SF, but so far I don't know his MOS. Unfortunately, with his age and the plethora of drugs they have him on, keeping him on track in our conversations is difficult. Some on my wife's side think he is a BS artist, but NONE of them have one bit of military background.

The next time I'm in Michagan I plan on sitting down with him to gather as much information on his background as I can, mostly for his children.

Is this forum great, or what? Thanks for the info.

[ArtR]

There were two Jump School and Jumpmaster classes that I know of that were held by the 10th Grp while I was assigned there. I left in 1958 so I can't honestly say if the courses continued into the 60's or not.