Severe Training versus Abuse

[tf999]

My sister is currently attending the police academy and is coming back with some hairy stories about what she is undergoing there. She has had racial and sexist slurs hurled at her by instructors, under the justification of "hardening her for what she will hear on the streets", she has not been allowed to address open wounds- even while rolling around in the sand and mud, etc. Several other students have already had to withdraw from the class due to injury.

My sister is not a complainer, or a wimp, and I have always subscribed to the opinion of Thucydides that, "He is best who was trained in the most severe school."
I want her to be trained hard because I know that the more she bleeds in training the less she will bleed on "the streets." However, I acknowledge that there is a point in which training becomes abusive. I would like to inquire for some informed opinions about the subject?

Thank you,

Tyler

[mdb23]

Originally Posted by tf999

My sister is currently attending the police academy and is coming back with some hairy stories about what she is undergoing there. She has had racial and sexist slurs hurled at her by instructors, under the justification of "hardening her for what she will hear on the streets", she has not been allowed to address open wounds- even while rolling around in the sand and mud, etc. Several other students have already had to withdraw from the class due to injury.

My sister is not a complainer, or a wimp, and I have always subscribed to the opinion of Thucydides that, "He is best who was trained in the most severe school."
I want her to be trained hard because I know that the more she bleeds in training the less she will bleed on "the streets." However, I acknowledge that there is a point in which training becomes abusive. I would like to inquire for some informed opinions about the subject?

Thank you,

Tyler

As a product of what was (at one time) considered one of the "tougher" academies in the midwest, here is my opinion based upn the limited information that you have provided.

1. Injuries are going to occur, and do with regularity. It is the nature of the beast. We had a recruit break his collar bone during my class (during defensive tactics), had others develop severe shin splints, and had recycles due to hyperextended joints, blown knees, etc. Many of these injuries were due to poor preparation on the part of the recruit (not enough time spent running prior to the academy, being grossly out of shape, etc), and others were merely training accidents. It happens, and is not necessarily an indication that the training is abusive in nature. Not everyone is built to handle physical training, and many of these kids nowadays have never done anything more strenuous than playing HALO.

2. I have never known racial slurs to be tolerated by any academy that I am aware of. In this day and age, that will cost you your job, and most likely result in a lawsuit from the recruit. When it comes to sexual "slurs," it depends on what you are talking about. If an instructor is making sexual comments about her or to her ("Nice ass you got there, " etc), that is a completet no go. If the comments are being made during classroom training, PT, DT, or at the range, then that is also a no go.

However, at my academy, we have what is called "situational training" during which the recruits are made to handle simulated calls involving highly realistic situations. Officers (such as myself) are actors during these calls, and simm rounds, training PRs, training OC, and actual locations are employed.

During this training, it was not uncommon for me to portray a belligerent party, and I would tell a female recruit to "fuck off, b*tch, you can suck my d*ck" when she told me to do something. I might also call them a c*nt, or whatever else came to my mind. This is realistic training, as the female officers in the hood hear this about 20 times a night.... if they can't handle an actor saying that to them in a training environment, then they don't need to be a cop. I have seen females break down and cry simply because we yelled at them, and it is better to find that out before they hit the streets where the bullets (and bad guys) are real.

But, as you can see, there is a difference between that and an instructor telling her how much he would like to get into her pants as he passes out exams or during a counseling session. That is unacceptable. I also never used a racial slur, regardless of the training situation, or I would be pumping gas for a living.

3. In regard to the "open wound" scenario, I don't have enough info to comment. If it was a gaping wound that required immediate medical attention, then they were wrong. If it was a scratch that she was using as an excuse to get out of grass drills, well, I can see an instructor saying, "Get yer ass back down there and roll."

Hope that helped.

[Jack Moroney (RIP)]

Training, regardless of what it is for, should be tailored to be realistic, prepare you for the knowns that you are expected with which to deal, get you in mental and physical condition to deal with situations yet unforeseen, and should be done under the conditions you will be expected to face and to the standards necessary to give you a reasonable chance of success. I am not qualified to talk about LEO training, but if the conditions and scenarios to which she is being subjected are those under and to which she is expected to operate then I see no problem. Sheep cannot lead sheep and no shepard or herding dog I know does not show the scars of experience or serious preparation for dealing with the flock or the wolves. Of course, speaking only locally up here, LEOs seem to think that once they go through the academy they are blessed by some magic potion and never have to do anything physical or strenuous again short of graduating from an 8oz cup of coffee to a 16oz mug to wash down their munchies of choice. Very much like a kid that goes through Ranger school and thinks that the tab makes him invinceable.

[Goggles Pizano]

Originally Posted by Jack Moroney

Of course, speaking only locally up here, LEOs seem to think that once they go through the academy they are blessed by some magic potion and never have to do anything physical or strenuous again short of graduating from an 8oz cup of coffee to a 16oz mug to wash down their munchies of choice. Very much like a kid that goes through Ranger school and thinks that the tab makes him invinceable.

An illness that is not particular to your area departments Sir. Many PD's cannot implement physical training regulations because the union wants the present workforce "grandfathered" to the standards. Of course when faced with legal arguments the fall back position is "you are all adults-you're on your own after the academy". Vicious cycle.

Tyler, listen to mdb23-his post is right on the money.

[jwt5]

Originally Posted by Goggles Pizano

An illness that is not particular to your area departments Sir. Many PD's cannot implement physical training regulations because the union wants the present workforce "grandfathered" to the standards. Of course when faced with legal arguments the fall back position is "you are all adults-you're on your own after the academy". Vicious cycle.
.

Down here in south Florida there was a push to do away with the "self sponsored" part of the academy. Infact at our local academy you can not attend unless you're already hired, that way you can't slack off during the training. Then, on top of that, a lot of the police departments are coming out with fitness standards that look similar to the Army's, with the exception of being more geared to LE activities, IE short distance running, jumping fences, etc, and much like with firearms, you have to take a test every 6 months.

It looks like it's been effective down here....

[mdb23]

Originally Posted by jwt5

Down here in south Florida there was a push to do away with the "self sponsored" part of the academy. Infact at our local academy you can not attend unless you're already hired, that way you can't slack off during the training. Then, on top of that, a lot of the police departments are coming out with fitness standards that look similar to the Army's, with the exception of being more geared to LE activities, IE short distance running, jumping fences, etc, and much like with firearms, you have to take a test every 6 months.

It looks like it's been effective down here....

In my state, the "big 3" depts run their own academies, which you cannot attend unless you have been hired by them. In my academy, you had to score a 70% in each category on the APFT in order to graduate (we used the Army grading scale), had comprehensive firearms and DT training, etc. My class started with 52 people, graduated 24, and only 18 made it off of FTO.

Then there are the "pay your own way" academies run by junior colleges. IMHO, most are a disgrace, accepting anyone and graduating everyone. None of the large agencies will hire you if you graduated from one, and these dudes go on to be the po po in every small town in the state. They often have no height/weight standards, no PT, and very little DT or range time (state minimums).

In my AO, if you are in SWAT you have to do your PFT every 6 months to stay in. For patrol, there is no requirement. However, twice a year you can do the PFT (voluntarily) and get a total of 4 paid days off for successfully completing it within the required time. Most people still don't do it, but I am all about getting paid days off.

There used to be a requirement (I think), but some fat dude sued the dept, claiming it violated ADA regs..... they had to drop it.

[x-factor]

I have played a jihadist detainee in several training sessions for interrogators and was very liberal with my language on all kinds of themes, including sexual harassment and some pretty vicious anti-Semitism. In my mind, to do less would not have been doing my job. If its done within the bounds of an adversarial scenario, then I don't think anything is off the table.

[monsterhunter]

There just isn't enough information to draw a conclusion. A more specific example of how she is being treated would be very helpful. I would be surprised if things were as bad as they seem at first blush.

[jwt5]

Originally Posted by mdb23

In my state, the "big 3" depts run their own academies, which you cannot attend unless you have been hired by them. In my academy, you had to score a 70% in each category on the APFT in order to graduate (we used the Army grading scale), had comprehensive firearms and DT training, etc. My class started with 52 people, graduated 24, and only 18 made it off of FTO.

Then there are the "pay your own way" academies run by junior colleges. IMHO, most are a disgrace, accepting anyone and graduating everyone. None of the large agencies will hire you if you graduated from one, and these dudes go on to be the po po in every small town in the state. They often have no height/weight standards, no PT, and very little DT or range time (state minimums).

In my AO, if you are in SWAT you have to do your PFT every 6 months to stay in. For patrol, there is no requirement. However, twice a year you can do the PFT (voluntarily) and get a total of 4 paid days off for successfully completing it within the required time. Most people still don't do it, but I am all about getting paid days off.

There used to be a requirement (I think), but some fat dude sued the dept, claiming it violated ADA regs..... they had to drop it.

I think the only "department" to have it's own academy in the state is the Florida Highway Patrol. They have a "bootcamp" style academy where trainees live in barracks and all that good stuff. Unfortunately they're one of the lowest paid agencies in the state, so they have a hard time getting people.

Most of the academies I've researched in the state allow a combination of self sponsor and agency sponsored.. Only a few, like the one I hope to attend, require you to be hired by an agency before hand. The only downside is that all of them are on college campus' and are "college style" training. I guess that's to appeal to more people with college degrees, which is the new push down here. However, on the up side, there is a standard curriculum in place by the state, so at least everyone is learning the same thing.

The local academy actually has a pretty impressive PT test for a "college style" academy. You have to pass a halfmile run in an allotted time, run an obstacle course, push ups, situps, pullups, and a swim.

After all, you gotta look good when riding up and down the beach

[Goggles Pizano]

Originally Posted by jwt5

Down here in south Florida
It looks like it's been effective down here....

I believe you! Trouble is I am up North where larger departments (such as mine) have very strong, very liberal unions. If you apply that vile mix to professional fitness standards you get lawsuits. The City only wants to hear lawsuit when it benefits them obviously so guess who loses? It's about 50/50 fitness conscious vs fat bastards.

Doughnuts suck!

[tf999]

Thank you all for your help. I certainly agree with Jack Moroney and mdb23 that realistic training is absolutely vital and injuries are the nature of the game. The wounds I have seen as a result of the training seem extreme (and I am not one to claim just about anything is too extreme), ie- badly bleeding wounds going untreated, not "scraped knees." As for the sexist and racial slurs being hurled- they are being hurled not during training scenarios, but PT, Obstacle, etc.

Tyler

[jwt5]

Originally Posted by Goggles Pizano

I believe you! Trouble is I am up North where larger departments (such as mine) have very strong, very liberal unions. If you apply that vile mix to professional fitness standards you get lawsuits. The City only wants to hear lawsuit when it benefits them obviously so guess who loses? It's about 50/50 fitness conscious vs fat bastards.

Doughnuts suck!

One good thing about not having big unions


You still see some "big guys" driving around, but they've all been grandfathered in. If some of the departments enforced the new PT standards on some of the older cops, they would lose have the force

The only problem I see facing the departments in my area, besides lack of decent pay (compared to cost of living) is the "we want college degrees" mindset. Down here you can tell which police officers were former military and who only graduated college just by their appearance... at least down here....

Sorry for the thread hijack...

[mdb23]

Originally Posted by tf999

As for the sexist and racial slurs being hurled- they are being hurled not during training scenarios, but PT, Obstacle, etc.

Tyler

1. If this is the case, and she feels like she is being discriminated against, then she needs to address it with her immediate supervisor. If she doesn't get it resolved that way, then go to the next person in the CoC. If that doesn't work, move up again, etc...

I have to say this, though.... I find it highly unlikely that instructors at a public police academy are just running around using racial and sexual slurs whenever they feel like it. Most PDs are so incredibly afraid of being sued that they bend over backward to make sure that this type of behavior does not happen. Hell, if one of us says something that can even be interpreted as racist or sexist, regardless of what we meant when saying it, we get disciplined....

Anything is ppssible, but the odds are against it. Are you actually witnessing these events, or are you just hearing about them second hand?

My academy was also hard and the only only racial or gender slurs were from role playing. That was it. Some of the females cried and we had one male that reacted with force if you looked at him wrong (not the guy to hire). We learned ground fighting techniques that brought on the open wounds and more bruises than I care to have counted. Coming back for more the next day and being motivated was 80% of the grade and that was enough to pass you.

The Ohio State Trooper academy is also run like a Marine bootcamp. They use redman suits for those "anyrything goes" moments and boxing. Females must also do the same. This is the hardest academy in our state with O.P.O.T.A. the next hardest.

I'm in agreement with what the others have stated before me by the way.

One last thing, once a few years ago while qualifying witht the shotgun, I witnessed a 165lb. female at around 5'2" miss three multiple targets with a shotgun using OObuck at a range of 5 yards. She didn't even hit the paper. The second time she did the exact same thing, and the third was the same again. She had to go through a remedial 24 hour course on the shotgun. She had been on the department for 4 years at this time.

[Goggles Pizano]

Originally Posted by MAB32

, I witnessed a 165lb. female at around 5'2"