How fire proof is your house?

Smokin Joe · 11-11-2007, 01:01

I was called to assist the hose draggers with a structure fire early this morning. Upon my arrival I found this (see pics).....

The alleged cause thus far (according to the fire investigator) is a spark popped out of the chimney, hit the deck, and the rest is a historic nightmare for these people. They were only able to get out with their pajamas on. Just to give you an idea of how fast this went up the house is approximately 3k square feet.

I’m not a Firefighter and my knowledge about fires is not much more than, “put the wet stuff on the hot stuff”. Maybe some of our local experts can give us some tips on how to better protect our homes during this winter season.

Be safe out there.

smokfire · 11-11-2007, 02:46

Best advice is to have your chimney inspected and or cleaned by a reputable chimney sweep. Keep chemicals and flammable items away from your fireplace and furnace. Sounds like common sense but you'd be surprised. Fires roughly double in size every minute. I've been dispatched to many chimney fires that were room and contents or structural fires by the time we arrived. The time for inspection and cleaning is BEFORE it gets cold enough that you will need them. Also ensure that your smoke detector batteries are fresh. Rule of thumb is to change them when you set your clocks forward or backward. Having a Carbon monoxide detector is a good idea as well. CO is a oderless and tasteless gas and is a silent killer. The symptoms are easily mistaken for the flu. There are many brands but one that plugs into an electrical outlet with a battery backup usually are more reliable. Follow the included directions for installation as mounting them too close to a furnace over time can lead to a false positive. One of the biggest is to have a escape plan for your family in case of a fire and PRACTICE it. Just my .02. Lots of info on the web as well.

smokfire

**Razor** · 11-11-2007, 18:37

Smokefire, we were told to mount our CO detectors high up on the wall (versus down low where you usually find outlets to plug them into) because CO is a light gas and accumulates up high first, not unlike smoke. Any input on this?

HOLLiS · 11-11-2007, 18:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Razor

Smokefire, we were told to mount our CO detectors high up on the wall (versus down low where you usually find outlets to plug them into) because CO is a light gas and accumulates up high first, not unlike smoke. Any input on this?

From everything I have read, CO2 is heavier than air.

Firebeef · 11-11-2007, 19:08

Pretty much what Smokefire said. Clean them chimneys early in the fall before you start using them. It should go without saying, but don't burn a lot of "junk" wood, busted pallets, and other such types of wood that tends to be pine and produces cresote. It's lucky your folks in Flagstaff got out. If you have small kids, come up with an escape plan and a rendesvous point outside the home and make sure the kids know to GET OUTSIDE and NEVER reenter a burning structure, even if fluffy, or God forbid anyone else is still inside. Then call 911. Practice your escape plan....perform a homewide EDRE at 0-dark-thirty some morning and see how quick and even IF everyone reacts, and then talk about it. (you'd be amazed at how often kids sleep through smoke detectors)

Razor!! (Wie geht's??) Copy on the CO detectors IDEALLY being mounted higher. CO is a lighter gas, and usually will be accompanying some other heated combustion products and does tend to rise. Most models are plug ins (make sure they have a battery back up), so therefore you don't have much of a choice unless you can get an outlet mounted high. We're required to be "on air" at 50ppm+, which is really a pretty low threshold. Some detectors go into alarm as low as 25 ppm...which is probably what most peoples garages register when you start the car in them, so it's relatively safe to say a CO alarm mounted at knee level will go into alarm not too long after the upper reaches have surpassed a safe threshold. Obviously, if you have high ceilings or a multi storied dwelling, make sure all levels are detectored. Use your judgement or stop by the local fire station....make sure you have a gallon of GOOD ice cream in hand!!, and ask us "hosedraggers" if they have any suggestions.

Be safe and Happy Veterans day to all from Station #5 in Greeley, CO

HOLLiS · 11-11-2007, 19:25

I gather the CO2 detector is more to alert the owner of a fire rather than a concentration of CO2 gas. In some homes that are sealed very well, the lower mounted detectors are for alerting the owner of a build up of CO2, (roughly 1.5 times as dense as air/at the same temp).

I think in my home, CO2 from a fire is more likely a problem than from build up, (House is not sealed that tight). Thanks for the heads up.

BTW, we re-roofed our house this summer, it was Cedar Shake.

Having enough property, we piled up the old roof to burn. Even after a good soaking from rain, it went off very fast and hot. Very scarey thought, if that was still our roof.

**The Reaper** · 11-11-2007, 20:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by HOLLiS

I gather the CO2 detector is more to alert the owner of a fire rather than a concentration of CO2 gas. In some homes that are sealed very well, the lower mounted detectors are for alerting the owner of a build up of CO2, (roughly 1.5 times as dense as air/at the same temp).

I think in my home, CO2 from a fire is more likely a problem than from build up, (House is not sealed that tight). Thanks for the heads up.

BTW, we re-roofed our house this summer, it was Cedar Shake.

Having enough property, we piled up the old roof to burn. Even after a good soaking from rain, it went off very fast and hot. Very scarey thought, if that was still our roof.

First, the more lethal gas that the detector is for is CO, NOT CO2.

Second, it is not a substitute for a smoke detector. It will detect smoke or CO when there is not fire, like when a gas hot water heater or kerosene stove goes out of whack and does not vent properly. It may not detect a fire till it is too late. People should have and use both.

Finally, while all shingles will burn under sufficient heat, cedar seems to me to be among the worst, especially in a fire zone.

TR

**The Reaper** · 11-11-2007, 20:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Broadsword2004

Regarding carbon monoxide being odorless and tasteless, don't they put a special kind of scent chemical into it so you can smell it if there's a leak...?

No, "they" do not make it at all, it is a byproduct of combustion.

I believe that you are referring to the mercaptan added to natural gas.

What do the schools teach these days?

TR

weatherall86 · 11-11-2007, 20:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Razor

...CO is a light gas and accumulates up high first.

Quote:

Originally Posted by HOLLiS

From everything I have read, CO2 is heavier than air.

Those are both correct statements, as carbon monoxide (CO) and carbon dioxide (CO2) are two different gases. Both are present in a structure fire, but we typically outfit our homes with CO detectors and relegate CO2 detectors to industrial applications and medical intubation kits.

Given what Firebeef said regarding instrument sensitivity, the salient issue probably isn't "where can I place the device to detect gas best," but rather, "where can I place the device so that the alarm will wake up all members of the house from a deep sleep"?

**Ambush Master** · 11-11-2007, 20:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by HOLLiS

I gather the CO2 detector is more to alert the owner of a fire rather than a concentration of CO2 gas. In some homes that are sealed very well, the lower mounted detectors are for alerting the owner of a build up of CO2, (roughly 1.5 times as dense as air/at the same temp).

I think in my home, CO2 from a fire is more likely a problem than from build up, (House is not sealed that tight). Thanks for the heads up.

BTW, we re-roofed our house this summer, it was Cedar Shake.

Having enough property, we piled up the old roof to burn. Even after a good soaking from rain, it went off very fast and hot. Very scarey thought, if that was still our roof.

WHOA HOLLIS!!!

Not CO2, CO..........Carbon Dioxide/ Carbon MONOXIDE!!!!

CO2 is somewhat benign, whereas CO will Kill You QUICK!!!

We exhale CO2, but CO latches onto the Oxygen in your blood and does not LET GO!!! It is an insidiously bad thing!!! It suffocates you!!!

Take care
Martin
Not a D, but a well informed B!!

**The Reaper** · 11-11-2007, 20:48

Actually, IIRC, it is absorbed into the RBCs hemoglobin rather than oxygen, and replaces the oxygen.

You die of asphyxia caused by CO poisoning.

Most people who die from it are overcome before they even realize what is happening.

TR

weatherall86 · 11-11-2007, 21:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Reaper

Actually, IIRC, it is absorbed into the RBCs hemoglobin rather than oxygen, and replaces the oxygen.

You die of asphyxia caused by CO poisoning.

Most people who die from it are overcome before they even realize what is happening.

This is correct.

Quote:

Cyanosis, nailbeds not blanching and recovering, shortness of breath, etc. are symptoms.

The symptoms of CO poisoning are more typically things like headache, confusion, dizziness, nausea, shortness of breath on exertion, the vague "flu-like symptoms" mentioned earlier in this thread. Hence its moniker as a "silent killer."

You should not see cyanosis nor prolonged capillary refill in the nail beds unless there is some comorbid condition.

Years ago, during my EMS training, we were taught that the cardinal symptom for CO poisoning was bright "cherry red" skin. Unfortunately, this is a very late sign (read: dead?), or not present at all. An article in the Journal of Emergency Medicine from 2002 said "cherry red" skin was present in only approximately 2% of cases.

As an additional point of interest on this topic, pulse oximetry is useless in the diagnosis of CO poisoning as the tightly bound CO on the heme (forming carboxyhemoglobin) provides a false positive, or "false oxygen-saturation-ness," to the meter, making the patient's oxygen saturation levels appear higher (even normal, or above normal) than they really are.

(Note: Carboxyhemoglobin levels themselves can be measured.)

smokfire · 11-11-2007, 21:16

Actually, CO is neither heavier or lighter than air. It distributes evenly through the home, which is why low mounted plug-in detectors will still work. Either a batterypowered or plug-in is just fine, the plug-ins for whatever reason seemed to be more accurate, and only use a battery when the power goes out. Some have LCD readouts to tell you what the level is. That's nice, but don't say "It's a low level, we'll be OK." If it goes off, GET OUTSIDE! CO can build up over time (a few hours or a day or two) to fatal levels even at low Parts Per Million concentrations. Best way to mount detectors is to mount them in a clean place away from pets and children. You can use a combination of battery and plug-ins to suit the needs of your family. Rule of thumb for smoke and CO detectors is one on every level of the home and one in every bedroom. I've responded to a family of five that were found dead in their home from CO poisoning. The mother had complained to her sister that most of the family were feeling "sick" earlier in the evening. It is believed that they never knew there was a CO problem and passed where they lie during the night. There was no Co detector in the home. Tragic but very preventable.

A couple of sites with great information:

First Alert - http://www.firstalert.com/

National Fire Protection Association - http://www.nfpa.org/itemDetail.asp?c...ookie%5Ftest=1

smokfire

HOLLiS · 11-11-2007, 22:25

mia coupa, Thank you for the correction. I am glad I was not doing any reloading today.

Thank you again, for the clarification.

FXCOfire · 11-12-2007, 14:07

A couple of things to add....

Good points were made on maintenance, prevention and detectors in the home. Any chimney/ fireplace call I have been on has a near 100% chance of a homeowner wondering when it was last cleaned. Too many incidents happen due poor maintenace, unattended candles, etc.

A word on home construction- The homes here in the Fairfax Co area and a lot of places across the country are of a new-style light weight construction. They burn hot and fast with a lot of nasty smoke and gases. There is no structural capacity to withstand a fire for long. If they burn, the insurance companies often bulldoze and just start over. In addition to all recomendation, check your homeowners policy and if you rent, get renter's insurance.

On fire depts- local departments have various programs to assist anyone with questions.

Last- to ensure accurate information, mercaptan is added to natural gas to give it its classic 'rotten egg' smell.

FXCOfire