More Supplements

**The Reaper** · 05-02-2004, 11:02

Gents, this question continues to recur, sort of like the whether you can bring your HSLD boots, socks, etc. to SFAS. The rules are pretty clear.

Classes have had guys removed from training who said that they had used Creatine, or Ephedra. Guys have had severe complications here which are almost certainly attributable to drug and supplement use and abuse. We are very sensitive to it and do not need or want any more of them.

Anyone who admits to having used creatine in the recent past will be denied attendance at SFAS. Ephedra has recently been banned as well. Lying is not an acceptable alternative.

We don't need people with supplement induced med problems in our program. We don't want people to do it, and lie about the use either. We are looking for people who are smart, strong, flexible, adaptive, motivated, educated, morally and ethically sound, able to work well alone with minimal supervision or as members of a group, as either good leaders or good followers, and who will never, ever give up. Your performance enhancing supplements are not part of our program.

I am aware of the research, and the possible benefits to the tiny percentage of the population who are in a performance zone where they will benefit from these supplements. Most of you who are not professional athletes are not there. We have at least one poster here who is a former NFL starting player. He may choose to elaborate on this at his desire. No, I am not going to tell you who he is.

Guys who are using lots of drugs and supplements are frequently the same SFAS candidates I see at Camp Mackall in the DFAC getting double chili cheese dogs and chili fries for lunch, with cake and ice cream on the side.

Our society is rife with immediate gratification junkies who want to lay on the sofa and play XBox, and just take a pill instead of a workout. The magic pill will make you stronger, the magic pill will cause you to lose weight, the magic pill will make you a millionaire. People, that is not how those of us who wear the beret got here, nor is it how those who are going to replace us will get here. Hard work and dedication is the magic pill.

We are evaluating soldiers, not performance enhancing chemicals. Get bigger, stronger, and faster the old fashioned way, by working out hard and often. There are no shortcuts or magic pills. Assistance is best limited to proper diet and improved work-out techniques or motivation. You don't have the motivation to get yourself into shape, all of the supplements in the world are not going to get you through the SF Course.

Supplements are not the route for the people we are looking for. Be smart, don't put yourself, or your future in SF at stake.

Good luck, and have a very SF Day.

TR

CrashBurnRepeat · 05-02-2004, 22:49

Reaper has a great point I agree with. The problem with supplements is that too many people view them as a shortcut to the result they want.

I have pretty extensive experience with the supplement market and high level atheletics and can confirm this is the case most of the time. For supplements to make a difference you have to be operating at an extremely high level and for pretty extended periods for the supplementation to be needed or to make a difference.

There are two different types of "supplementation" that people tend to use on a regular basis; nutritional supplementation and chemical supplementation. The nutritional supplements tend to be more useful over a long period and also less harmful. I.E. if you want to spend a lot of $$$ on protein powder and are willing to work a lot harder to put it to use, more pow(d)er too you. thanks for helping the economy and plugging the pipes. Your muscles can only repair themselves at a certain rate and you can only use a certain amount of protein at a given time; it's a fact. Extra powder is just that; extra and unused.

The other category, chemical, is less useful and very much more dangerous. The more common stimulants like ephedra and creatine offer no advantage, and can or will kill you under the types of activity you would be undertaking in a Special Forces training situation or active engagement. Stress, lack of nutrition, exertion and temperature extremes and dehydration will cause you heart problems or worse.

Recently they released a study on ephedra and it's . The end result was thametabolic effect. The upshot was that if you took ephedra, your heart would speed up enough to burn off 1 piece of bread in 24 hours. So if you need the boost of taking ephredra, try and beg a cracker from someone. It's about the same.

Creatine; what a joke. I was part of a double blind study in college on the effects of creatine. End result; no benefit. The act of taking creatine makes you believe your muscles heal better and you worked out harder. Getting bigger. They did the same study at Notre Dame at the same time, and got the same result. Taking creatine motivates you to work out harder, getting stronger. So forget the ephedras, and creatines. Roids, that goes without saying. I have personally seen a lot, and I mean a lot of roid users. Yes, roids can get you tremendous muscle gains and you can actually make use of that extra protein, but the costs are too high. And I'm not just talking about M.U.S. (miniscule unit syndrome) or W.A.M.B. (where are my balls?!) syndrome but pretty severe skeletal or joint issues because of the increased size. Then there are the "other" issues, not the least of which is death, so avoid roids.

Now, all this being said, and I've already said too much, there IS a benefit in supplementation for certain people and situations. I've never been in the military but I've been in similiar training programs as far as physical stress and there is a lot to be said about going into said program in top physical condition so as to increase your chance of not being injured or degrading to the point of compromising your performance. This generally means, a good workout program, a good strength training regimen and great nutrition. Great nutrition might include protein loading if you are lifting that hard. It also might include calcium because if you are lifting that hard you are building bone up and bone is an often overlooked structural issue. Calcium is also critical to muscle function, exactly why I forget but if you are low on calcium you'll cramp like a biaatch under heavy load.

But when you are in top physical condition, and you finally get into the "program", enjoy the fruits of your preparation and use just two supplements; Water, lots and lots of water, and carbs.
You will be burning calories like mad and you should keep up on your carbohydrates. Low glycemic index carbs beat high ones but I'd take whatever they fed me since you probably don't have much choice in food when you are getting shot at, either figuratively in training or literally.

One supplement that was popular with my group during heavy training or games were glucose tablets. These were big round lime flavored things that were just straight sugar of a kind that was easily absorbed. Marathoners are also a valuable source of quick energy sources, locally they are fond of the honey packets from KFC

I'm serious. They are cheaper than the commercial ones and still a pretty serious jolt of pure energy.

So just make sure to eat right, and stay hydrated and you will mostly have your bases covered. If you aren't eating right you might benefit from some supplementation but the right answer is what Reaper said; eat right, work hard and take care of yourself and you're good to go.

CrashBurnRepeat

**Razor** · 05-03-2004, 10:22

Calcium is required to allow the muscle fibers to contract (very basic explanation). A more detailed explanation from http://savell-j.tamu.edu/muscontract.html follows:

The following steps are involved in muscle contraction:

(1) The sequence of events leading to contraction is initiated somewhere in the central nervous system, either as voluntary activity from the brain or as reflex activity from the spinal cord.

(2) A motor neuron in the ventral horn of the spinal cord is activated, and an action potential passes outward in a ventral root of the spinal cord.

(3) The axon branches to supply a number of muscle fibers called a motor unit, and the action potential is conveyed to a motor end plate on each muscle fiber.

(4) At the motor end plate, the action potential causes the release of packets or quanta of acetylcholine into the synaptic clefts on the surface of the muscle fiber.

(5) Acetylcholine causes the electrical resting potential under the motor end plate to change, and this then initiates an action potential which passes in both directions along the surface of the muscle fiber.

(6) At the opening of each transverse tubule onto the muscle fiber surface, the action potential spreads inside the muscle fiber.

(7) At each point where a transverse tubule touches part of the sarcoplasmic reticulum, it causes the sarcoplasmic reticulum to release Ca++ ions.

(8) The calcium ions result in movement of troponin and tropomyosin on their thin filaments, and this enables the myosin molecule heads to "grab and swivel" their way along the thin filament. This is the driving force of muscle contraction.

Contraction is turned off by the following sequence of events:

(9) Acetylcholine at the neuromuscular junction is broken down by acetylcholinesterase, and this terminates the stream of action potentials along the muscle fiber surface.

(10) The sarcoplasmic reticulum ceases to release calcium ions, and immediately starts to resequester all the calcium ions that have been released.

(11) In the absence of calcium ions, a change in the configuration of troponin and tropomyosin then blocks the action of the myosin molecule heads, and contraction ceases.

(12) In the living animal, an external stretching force, such as gravity or an antagonistic muscle, pulls the muscle back to its original length.

For those of us that do better with pictures than words, try here:
http://entertainment.howstuffworks.com/muscle4.htm

-nD- · 05-03-2004, 10:57

Quote:

Originally posted by CrashBurnRepeat
Creatine; what a joke. I was part of a double blind study in college on the effects of creatine. End result; no benefit. The act of taking creatine makes you believe your muscles heal better and you worked out harder. Getting bigger. They did the same study at Notre Dame at the same time, and got the same result. Taking creatine motivates you to work out harder, getting stronger. So forget the ephedras, and creatines.

i haven't and won't be using creatine due to my goals regarding sf, however it has been proven to work.

click this link: http://efini.home.comcast.net/creatine_study.pdf

very interesting to say the least

CommoGeek · 05-03-2004, 11:21

Quote:

Originally posted by CrashBurnRepeat
Yes, roids can get you tremendous muscle gains and you can actually make use of that extra protein, but the costs are too high. And I'm not just talking about M.U.S. (miniscule unit syndrome) or W.A.M.B. (where are my balls?!) syndrome but pretty severe skeletal or joint issues because of the increased size. Then there are the "other" issues, not the least of which is death, so avoid roids.

I know of one soldier that took 'roids as he was involved in body building comps here in FL.

One fine day doing a hollywood jump from a UH-60 his PLF resulted in a compund fracture of his left femur.

The DZ was Weinberg DZ at Camp Blanding where 70% of the DZ is sugar sand.

CrashBurnRepeat · 05-03-2004, 12:19

Quote:

Originally posted by -nD-
i haven't and won't be using creatine due to my goals regarding sf, however it has been proven to work.

click this link: http://efini.home.comcast.net/creatine_study.pdf

very interesting to say the least

That is a good article, and is pretty interesting. It's similar to another they did in 92 or 93 that basically got the same effects as they did, there are a couple of differences in this one and I the study I got suckered into though; The first was the levels of creatine, ours were a little lower than this and we also didn't take HMB. The second was activity levels. This one was studying creatine and HMB as a means of gaining body mass while on a weight training program, minus significant cardio exercise. Creatine can pack some size on you all other things being equal but it's still not that significant. The put 6 extra lbs on their average bench over the control group but I've seen guys up their bench close to 30lbs just by modifying their grip. So it's sort of subjective.

Ours was also done during summer training camp and we were undergoing a signifcant amount of cardio training. They knew that this cut into some of the weight gain that would have showed from undertaking weight training only. I find a weight training regimen minus cardio sort of unrealistic, especially for a well trained athlete, since they will always have cardio.

Regardless of the gains they found in this study, they are not significant enough for either the cost or the risk in this situation to warrant the use. Not to mention as Reaper said, you'll get ejected if you are using.

I'd be interested to see this study redone but have them either running their asses ragged at the same time, or have them repeatedly smash themselves into a wall for a few hours every day to see if their results change any....

end result is the same, best course of action seems to be good program combined with good nutrition and you're good to go.

CBR

**Bill Harsey** · 05-03-2004, 12:52

Great thread! I hope all the young guys read this. I have the privilege to know CrashBurnRepeat and call him a friend. Just wanted you guys to know that he knows whereof he speaks. CBR is one serious big strong boy.

QRQ 30 · 05-04-2004, 13:11

Don't get the idea I'm against physical conditioning. I just want y'all to keep it is perspective as a means and not the goal.

Now I just have to ask TR. When I was at FOB-2 in 1968 the NCO who worked in Recon S-3 and made and announced the missions had the same name. His middle name was Grim -- full name "The Grim Reaper." Are you related?

BadMuther · 05-04-2004, 13:52

Quote:

Originally posted by -nD-
i haven't and won't be using creatine due to my goals regarding sf, however it has been proven to work.

click this link: http://efini.home.comcast.net/creatine_study.pdf

very interesting to say the least

Simplified, Creatine makes your body retain water. Similiar to excess sodium.

Creatine also does some nasty stuff to your body in the long term.

BadMuther · 05-04-2004, 13:54

Quote:

Originally posted by The Reaper

Classes have had guys removed from training who said that they had used Creatine, or Ephedra. Guys have had severe complications here which are almost certainly attributable to drug and supplement use and abuse. We are very sensitive to it and do not need or want any more of them.

Anyone who admits to having used creatine in the recent past will be denied attendance at SFAS. Ephedra has recently been banned as well. Lying is not an acceptable alternative.

TR,

I'm just curious what the timelines are for past ephedra and creatine use barring entrance into SFAS.. Ephedra has a pretty short half life (don't have the numbers before me), and gets out of the body fairly quickly.

I'm not sure about creatine.

**The Reaper** · 05-04-2004, 16:19

Quote:

Originally posted by BadMuther
TR,

I'm just curious what the timelines are for past ephedra and creatine use barring entrance into SFAS.. Ephedra has a pretty short half life (don't have the numbers before me), and gets out of the body fairly quickly.

I'm not sure about creatine.

And I would explain this to you here for what reason?

TR

BadMuther · 05-04-2004, 16:34

Sake of discussion, but If you don't want to, it's no sweat off my back.

I just don't see how if someone did ephedrine or creatine 2 years ago how that would be relevent.

**The Reaper** · 05-04-2004, 16:54

I'm done trying to explain why this is a bad idea, and why we will not tolerate it, rather than the "how to do it and get away with it" several people seem to be seeking here.

You can't follow instructions this simple and rational, it does not bode well for your future in the Army.

This thread is closed.

TR