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Old 08-29-2007, 17:41   #1
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More Guns, Not Less, Would Prevent Shooting Massacres

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,294954,00.html

John Lott: More Guns, Not Less, Would Prevent Shooting Massacres
Wednesday, August 29, 2007

By John Lott and Maxim Lott

Few tragedies make their victims feel more helpless than multiple-victim shootings.

Imagine the terror: Unable to escape, simply waiting for the killer.

With school starting, the April 16 attack at Virginia Tech that left 32 dead is still on many people’s minds. Some are looking for guarantees that such an attack won’t happen again.

But Virginia Tech’s just released report on how to stop future tragedies was pretty disappointing, and this coming week’s Virginia Governor’s task force report isn’t likely to be any better. The university proposes more counseling for mentally troubled students, internet based billboards to alert students of emergencies, putting both the police and fire departments into the same building to allow better coordination, more surveillance cameras, and locks that make it easier for students to get out of buildings.

Well, more cameras might help get campus police to the scene faster, but let’s hope that the next attacker doesn’t commit the attack where there are no cameras or that he doesn’t disable them first. Assuming that the doors to buildings are merely locked as they normally would be--and that the assailant has not blocked them or tied them shut with a chain-- easy to open locks could help.

If a current student is planning the next attack, gets identified as having mental problems and has treatment, and that the treatment is successful, more mental health resources could be helpful.

But one glaring omission remains: The report failed to ask whether there were any common features or similarities among the different multiple-victim public shooting tragedies. And what happens if these policies fail? Should there be some ultimate protection upon which the university can rely?

Of course, these horrors are hardly unique to the United States. In 1996, Martin Bryant killed 35 people at Port Arthur in Tasmania, Australia. In the last half-dozen years, European countries-- including France, Germany and Switzerland-- have experienced multiple-victim shootings.

The worst, in Germany, resulted in 17 deaths; in Switzerland, one attack claimed the lives of 14 regional legislators. Of course, since 1997 there have been multiple attacks in the U.S., with the 13 dead at Columbine.

Prior to Virginia Tech, the two previous most deadly shootings in the U.S. were the 1991 Luby's Cafeteria massacre in Texas, which left 23 people dead, and the shooting at a California McDonald's in 1984, in which 21 people were killed.

All these attacks shared something in common: citizens were already banned from having guns in those areas. Indeed, every multiple-victim public shooting of any significant size in the United States has occurred in one of these gun-free zones.

The problem with gun-control laws is not that there isn't enough regulation, rather that it is primarily the law-abiding, not the criminals, who obey these laws.

Virginia Tech has rigorously enforced its gun-free zone policy and suspended students with concealed handgun permits who have tried to bring handguns onto school property, and it will continue to do so. Imagine what this means for a faculty member fired for bringing even a permitted concealed handgun on campus. It would be impossible for them to get another academic job at any other university. Similarly, a student who gets expelled for a firearms violation will find it virtually impossible to get admitted to another school.

But whether it is the suspensions and expulsions at universities, or even the three-year prison terms that can await those who take guns onto property of K-12 schools in most states, these penalties are completely meaningless for someone intent on killing and facing multiple life sentences or death penalties.

But citizens and police who pack heat do help, because they can stop a shooting while it is happening. Amazingly, opposition to guns on campuses is so extreme that some even oppose police being able to carry guns.

When, in the wake of the Virginia Tech shooting, campus police at Brandeis University asked that they be armed to prevent similar tragedies, the president of the Brandeis Student Union even argued that, “the sense of community and the sense of safety would be disturbed very much by having guns on campus.”

The administration is now considering arming its officers but has not taken action. By Sept. 10, the University of Iowa, Iowa State University and the University of Northern Iowa will also decide whether to end an almost 30-year ban and allow campus police to again carry handguns.

Police with guns are certainly helpful, but there simply aren’t enough police to ensure that an officer will be at the scene when shooting starts. For example, this past spring at Virginia Tech, each officer on duty had to cover well over 250 acres.

Up until the early 1970s, Israel had to deal with the cold reality of terrorists who would take machine guns into shopping malls, schools, and Synagogues and open fire. That type of attack doesn’t occur any more. Why? Israelis realized that armed citizens could stop such an attacker before he did much damage.

About 15 percent of Israelis are now licensed to carry weapons, and determined terrorists have to resort to less effective, secretive routes of attack such as bombing.

Increasing the probability that someone will be able to protect himself or herself increases deterrence. Even when any single person might have a small probability of having a concealed handgun, the probability that at least someone in the crowd will have a gun is very high.

There have been a number of attempted public attacks have been stopped by permit holders on streets, at universities, and public schools.

While right-to-carry laws-- now operating in 40 states -- do reduce violent crime generally, the effect is much larger for multiple-victim shootings. Normally about 2 to 6 percent of adults in any state have permits, and for most crimes that means some deterrence. But for a shooting in a public place where there might be dozens or hundreds of people, it will almost ensure that at least someone -- someone who is unknown to the attacker -- will be able to defend themselves and others.

People won't have to wait helplessly for the killer to get them.

Police are extremely important in deterring crime but, as this latest attack showed again, they almost always arrive after the crime has been committed. Annual surveys of crime victims in America by the U.S. Bureau of Justice Statistics continually show that, when confronted by a criminal, people are safest if they have a gun.

Just as the threat of arrest and prison can deter criminals from committing a crime, so does the fact that victims can defend themselves.

Other countries wonder how millions of Americans can be allowed to legally carry concealed handguns. We must be crazy. Won't blood flow in the streets?

Many Americans also initially shared the same fears, but not any longer. The permit holders have proven to be extremely law-abiding. There is a reason no state that has allowed citizens to carry guns has reversed course.

Most people understand that guns deter criminals. Suppose you or your family are being stalked by a criminal who intends to harm you. Would you feel safer putting a sign in front of your home saying "This home is a gun-free zone"? Would it frighten criminals away?

Good intentions don't necessarily make good laws. What counts is whether the laws ultimately save lives. Unfortunately, too many gun laws primarily disarm law-abiding citizens, not criminals.


John Lott is the author of Freedomnomics and a senior research scientist at the University of Maryland. Two of his sons are attending public universities in Virginia. Maxim Lott is a college student in Virginia at the College of William & Mary.
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Old 08-29-2007, 20:19   #2
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After the VT shootings I started bringing my 9 to work. I leave it in the car, out of site. I'll be damned if I'm going to rely on the 1 OPD officer sitting in the cafeteria to protect us.

If I get caught I get fired and prosecuted; that's life.
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Old 08-30-2007, 14:25   #3
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It's my understanding that there are efforts in Texas to allow concealed carry permit holders to bring firearms on campus - and, that the Governor (Rick Perry) supports the idea.

I think it's a great idea!
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Old 08-30-2007, 14:57   #4
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The major LE motto is "serve and protect".. the problem with the motto is that LE are a reaction force. Usually the damage is done by the time the call comes in. This is something the Dems and liberal do not comprehend. I'm thankful that as a retired LE (come October 07) I will be able to carry most of the time and have a weapon near by for the few places I can't.

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Old 08-30-2007, 16:30   #5
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Since I live and park on campus in Richmond, as a grad student, I can't even legally bring my rifle up to the armorer to get it worked on and then put it somewhere till I go home again. Wonderful stuff.

But hey there are ~ 5 extremely obese Richmond City Police sitting where they bring the inmates to the hospital to get care. Their response time would be GREAT!
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Old 02-20-2011, 23:01   #6
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http://www.aolnews.com/story/texas-p...-guns/1602976/

Texas poised to pass bill allowing guns on campus

Feb 20, 2011 - 13:08PM
AUSTIN, Texas -Texas is preparing to give college students and professors the right to carry guns on campus, adding momentum to a national campaign to open this part of society to firearms.

More than half the members of the Texas House have signed on as co-authors of a measure directing universities to allow concealed handguns. The Senate passed a similar bill in 2009 and is expected to do so again. Republican Gov. Rick Perry, who sometimes packs a pistol when he jogs, has said he's in favor of the idea.

Texas has become a prime battleground for the issue because of its gun culture and its size, with 38 public universities and more than 500,000 students. It would become the second state, following Utah, to pass such a broad-based law. Colorado gives colleges the option and several have allowed handguns.

Supporters of the legislation argue that gun violence on campuses, such as the mass shootings at Virginia Tech in 2007 and Northern Illinois in 2008, show that the best defense against a gunman is students who can shoot back.

"It's strictly a matter of self-defense," said state Sen. Jeff Wentworth, R-San Antonio. "I don't ever want to see repeated on a Texas college campus what happened at Virginia Tech, where some deranged, suicidal madman goes into a building and is able to pick off totally defenseless kids like sitting ducks...."
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Old 02-21-2011, 09:19   #7
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I love Texas. Any place that has drive through stores where you can buy beer and ammo is alright with me...
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Old 02-21-2011, 09:31   #8
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"It's strictly a matter of self-defense," said state Sen. Jeff Wentworth, R-San Antonio. "I don't ever want to see repeated on a Texas college campus what happened at Virginia Tech, where some deranged, suicidal madman goes into a building and is able to pick off totally defenseless kids like sitting ducks...."
Our nuts are smart enough to shoot from towers with rifles here so CCW students and faculty can't get to them.

And so it goes...

Richard
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Old 02-21-2011, 09:35   #9
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Originally Posted by Richard View Post
Our nuts are smart enough to shoot from towers with rifles here so CCW students and faculty can't get to them.

And so it goes...

Richard
And the reason real snipers now have to pass psychological testing, a psychological screening......

Most big police departments now have .50 sniper rifle to deal with these sort of issues. There's no place to hide when you're facing a .50 and a trained sniper...
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Old 02-21-2011, 09:53   #10
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I seem to recall something about..........

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Our nuts are smart enough to shoot from towers with rifles here so CCW students and faculty can't get to them.

And so it goes...

Richard
I seem to recall something about a shooting in a Mall. Some of it took place in a Restaurant. One of the people eating with her parents had a CCW permit but because the Mall did not allow weapons she kept it in her car. A Nut came in shot up the place and killed her parents.

Was that in Texas, Richard?
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Old 02-21-2011, 10:10   #11
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I seem to recall something about a shooting in a Mall. Some of it took place in a Restaurant. One of the people eating with her parents had a CCW permit but because the Mall did not allow weapons she kept it in her car. A Nut came in shot up the place and killed her parents.

Was that in Texas, Richard?
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Texas is preparing to give college students and professors the right to carry guns on campus...
I thought the topic was allowing CCW on college campuses...

Richard
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Old 02-21-2011, 10:22   #12
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But isn't the greater issue really about whether we want areas - whether colleges or something else - that leave the law-abiding unarmed?

I recall my favorite college campus right after some dreadful shooting or other. The police were parked in the median at the entry and exit points. Countless vehicles passed by. Once parked, students and faculty strolled to the classrooms with large backpacks filled to the bursting point. Others had luggage on rollers. Somehow, I didn't see how the presence of our campus police officers made anyone more secure.

There is a further issue. I understand that public campuses are, in fact, open to the public. So anyone - anyone at all - can come on campus and enjoy the ambiance even if they are not a student, faculty, or staff. So this may increase the vulnerability of those usually on campus to those who might wish to cause problems.

I know there are problems. I understand there are deep and legitimate concerns. And yet, I find myself in support of the new law. MOO, YMMV.
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Old 02-21-2011, 10:27   #13
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Not too many students would use a..................

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Originally Posted by Richard View Post
I thought the topic was allowing CCW on college campuses...

Richard
Not too many students would use a rifle as their Concealed Carry Weapon. And I don't think the Texas Tower shooter was carring his as a Concealed Weapon.

I'm not up enough on the case to know how he got it up there.

But the general thrust of this thread is asking if we have to fear those than carry concealed within the local law.
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Old 02-21-2011, 10:50   #14
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Our nuts are smart enough to shoot from towers with rifles here so CCW students and faculty can't get to them.

And so it goes...

Richard
Well, they could, just like armed citizens at Austin helped engage the threat and pin him down with their privately owned weapons, on campus.

TR
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Old 02-21-2011, 11:07   #15
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Well, they could, just like armed citizens at Austin helped engage the threat and pin him down with their privately owned weapons, on campus.

TR
This is Texas - brandishing a weapon around here to threaten someone is never a wise idea.

Richard
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