freaking Navy

[RiotMaker]

So I was reading an aritcle in a paper today. It was about a Navy SEAL recruiter competing in the Badwater Ultramarathon. (for those who don't know it's a 135 mile run through Death Valley California) He did it to recruit "highly-trained candidates" to go SEAL.

Then I read a comment. Something along the lines of "SEALs are looking for recruits in these types of competitions because unlike other Spec Ops branches, the SEALs refuse to lower their standards."

Does anyone take offense to this? Has SF lowered their training standards in the past few years? I mean, I know the Army has. I see it everyday around me.

Forgive me if I've stepped on any toes here. I wasn't implying that SF has softened up. Just wondering if it has changed it's requirements some.

[Pete]

I was in the last hard class

[jatx]

I am not going to address your question in re: standards.

However, I will say that, as a former world class ultramarathoner, I did not possess "military fitness" at the peak of my training. My body was perfectly suited to Double Ironmans, Ultraman, the Race Across America, etc., but I was too lean and too fragile, offsetting any edge I might have had in muscular or cardiovascular endurance. I could not haved moved out, day after day, with a heavy ruck under less than ideal conditions. I was definitely not wired to be a team player.

IMHO, anyone competing in ultramarathons should do so for the intrinsic rewards, not because it is going to prepare them for something else. Also, shame on that guy for badmouthing his SOF brothers!

and no mention of bad-mouthing other branches, just raised the issue that he was a former Ranger, that post was corrected by a teammate who explained he attended Ranger school as a Frog and graduated honorman in his class, but nothing bad about the Rangers or other branches, just one tough American Fighting Man.

[The Reaper]

Originally Posted by RiotMaker

So I was reading an aritcle in a paper today. It was about a Navy SEAL recruiter competing in the Badwater Ultramarathon. (for those who don't know it's a 135 mile run through Death Valley California) He did it to recruit "highly-trained candidates" to go SEAL.

Then I read a comment. Something along the lines of "SEALs are looking for recruits in these types of competitions because unlike other Spec Ops branches, the SEALs refuse to lower their standards."

Does anyone take offense to this? Has SF lowered their training standards in the past few years? I mean, I know the Army has. I see it everyday around me.

Forgive me if I've stepped on any toes here. I wasn't implying that SF has softened up. Just wondering if it has changed it's requirements some.

There is only one way to find out.

Go through both and let us know which was tougher when you are done. Unless the individual who said that had been to both or worked at both, I am not sure that he is really qualified to make that statement.

I do not believe that the difficulty of the training necessarily defines the quality of the man. The real question is whether your selection process accurately selects the candidates that you are looking for, with the attributes that you require for your force.

I was with the Italian SF battalion on exchange many years ago, and they tried to convince me that their training was better because they killed a couple of candidates in training every year.

Standards SHOULD change, as the force and the requirements change. SF is a thinking man's game. We continue to evolve and to change our selection and our training in order to put the right guys in the pipeline and subsequently the force. We hope that these are the people who can meet our standards and who can do the job once they arrive in the force. We still have the core skills that a guy who went through the Q Course in the 1950s would recognize, but we have also changed to take advantage of modern input into our selection and assessment process, as well as to select students who have the characteristics that we need in an ever evolving force.

Reality also dictates that if you have trouble recruiting, selecting, training, and graduating sufficient numbers of SF soldiers to adequately man the force from a 765,000 man Army, it will be a much more difficult challenge to do so from a 485,000 man force. The SEALs are able to compete across the entire Navy, for the guys who want to do what they do, for a much smaller force than SF. SF has to man about ten times as many slots as the SEALs. They can select for their force in whatever way meets their needs. I have never been through BUDS, or SEAL training, so I cannot comment on the difficulty or adequacy of their selection process for their needs, and it would be unprofessional for me to do so. Dick Couch, a former SEAL has, and he followed an SF class through the entire process. He seems to address that comparison somewhat in his book.

There are a couple of variables in force management. You have the number coming in, which is affected by bonuses, pre-reqs, etc., and you have the number attritting away, as retirements, medical losses, etc. When the force management software misses some attrition point, and the number of SF guys leaving doubles (like when contractors were paying $1000 per day for SF guys), you have to figure out a way to try and catch up. Like the 18X program, which has been very successful. We were graduating 250 SF soldiers per year in 2001, and losing 750 per year. You have to cut losses and increase accessions, or blow away like dust in the wind.

At some point, if you cannot man the force, the Army will cut your force structure. We eventually had to zero out one ODA per SF Company, or we were going to lose something bigger. Like an SF Group. Can anyone imagine what would have happened with the GWOT without 3rd Group, which was oriented (at least partially) to the AOR?

I am satisfied with the current standards and difficulty of the SFQC. It would have smoked my ass in my best condition ever. I do not think that SFAS is a cakewalk or has lost its edge. After all, we are selecting for candidates who can successfully complete SF training, and become valuable members of the force. Not hazing for a fraternity, or tab protecting, or trying to get even for having been in the last hard class. And by and large, I think that history is proving that we have selected the right people, given them the right training, and sent them to successfully accomplish some pretty difficult tasks in the GWOT. I am not really interested in who thinks they are tougher, or whose package is bigger. We are proving ourselves and validating our program in combat, every day. I do not see us coming up short to anyone.

TR

[Guy]

I used to do 10+ min in the two miles when I joined the military at 70" 128lbs., that was after the PU/SU, once I thru that ruck on

Stay safe.

[rubberneck]

Originally Posted by RiotMaker

Then I read a comment. Something along the lines of "SEALs are looking for recruits in these types of competitions because unlike other Spec Ops branches, the SEALs refuse to lower their standards."

I read that story and didn't come away with the same impression. IIRC the reporter wasn't quoting anyone directly from Navy Special Warfare Command with those comments. I think this is one of those cases where the reporter reached for a juicy line and missed the mark doing a disservice to both the Quiet Professionals and the SEALs at the same time.

[Geo]

I was watching the military channel a few weeks back. They were doing a bit on Iraq. One marine said, "The enemy knew who we were, and that we wouldn't run away from a fight like the Army did." What kind of a comment is that to make to a news guy? Sorry, I'll go back to my safe place now.

[jwt5]

Originally Posted by Geo

I was watching the military channel a few weeks back. They were doing a bit on Iraq. One marine said, "The enemy knew who we were, and that we wouldn't run away from a fight like the Army did." What kind of a comment is that to make to a news guy? Sorry, I'll go back to my safe place now.

There was a lot of that going back and forth over there, particularly during the invasion in 2003. Some of the Marines look at it from that point of view because they were the ones going up through the cities on the Eastern side of the Euphraties River fighting mostly Saddam's Fadeyeen and some Republican Guard. We in the Army were going through the cities on the western side and the open desert, mostly fighting the Republican Guard and the Iraqi Regular Army. Two totally different fights. Heck, most of us didn't even know what the Marines were doing until we came home and saw/read the news from that time frame.

Turns out the Marines went the way they did to draw the attention away from us Army folks so we could get to Baghdad faster. Of course the plan didn't work the way it was supposed to, but that's neither here nor there....

[Five-O]

Arguing who is tougher SF,Rangers, Delta, Seal, Recon is the stuff of drunk 19 year olds. It is imature, unprofessional and unproductive. There is no right answer, as I think it is common knowledge, each organization has its particular skill set and first line mission (ignoring mission creep). What is more important is the one characteristic they all share.......they never quit.

[Team Sergeant]

Originally Posted by RiotMaker

So I was reading an aritcle in a paper today. It was about a Navy SEAL recruiter competing in the Badwater Ultramarathon. (for those who don't know it's a 135 mile run through Death Valley California) He did it to recruit "highly-trained candidates" to go SEAL.

Then I read a comment. Something along the lines of "SEALs are looking for recruits in these types of competitions because unlike other Spec Ops branches, the SEALs refuse to lower their standards."

Does anyone take offense to this? Has SF lowered their training standards in the past few years? I mean, I know the Army has. I see it everyday around me.

Forgive me if I've stepped on any toes here. I wasn't implying that SF has softened up. Just wondering if it has changed it's requirements some.

Before you post again read a bit more. (You attempting to live up to your screen name?)

Your question has been answered, more than once. This post came very close to ending up in the "Hallway".

http://www.professionalsoldiers.com/...splay.php?f=98

Next time think before you post.

I/We will not warn you twice.

Team Sergeant