Claymores

[Team Sergeant]

We were setting up a (training) linear ambush, nothing fancy and we’re about to emplace the claymores when one of the guys said “just set it in front of that tree at the base and we will not have to worry about foreign objects getting thrown back at us.� Sure! “WILCO�. (the “tree was a Ft Bragg pine, tall and skinny)

We set out a few mines and finished laying the wire, everything looked good and we settled in for a critique of our set up. We looked good, CDR was happy and now all that was left to do was to “roll� the targets for a live fire! (We had a set of 6 targets on a “very� long rope and they were pulled through the ambush site for our benefit.

Targets start rolling and we flip the safeties off the clackers for the claymores to initiate the ambush.

My buddy holding the clacker starts yelling:

“FIRE IN THE HOLE, FIRE IN THE HOLE, FIRE IN THE BOOOOOM.�

All is quiet for a second and then you hear:

“TIMMMMBERRRR�

Funny as hell, the tree neatly cut at the base was now falling straight back onto our positions. Lesson learned and no one lost an eye.

Team Sergeant

[Max_Tab]

I'm currently on staff duty, so I'm going through some old threads that I have missed.

I was at JRTC working with some British SAS who were attached to us, and we did numerous live fires. We did the same thing. Well it got to be a joke to see how many trees we could knock down. After about 13 pine trees met there maker, our OC's told us not to do it anymore, because range control was bitching. Heck we even blew down a small trees using all the extra blasting caps taped around the base.

On a completely differant tangent, the SAS Sgt Maj told us to not initiate an ambush with the claymore, . When I asked him why, he said that after the claymore's go off, the smoke and dust obscure the kill zone. He wanted us to initiate with the machine gun, and save the claymores for the end. His experience was Africa (real world). Anybody, have any opinions on this?

[37F5V]

Max,

That kinda goes against everything that I've ever been taught??? Everything being a few years in the 101st and Ranger School so take it for what its worth.

I suppose that the METT-T analysis would help answer that question if ever raised.... I've only ever conducted ambush's in training and don't seem to recall so much obscuration that maintaining good sectors of fire wouldn't mitigate the effects. Keep in mind that the training was never done in such an arrid environment that one would expect a ton of dirt and dust, and the positions were generally firing down into the kill-zone from elevated positions.

[Max_Tab]

I guess it all goes to your deffinition of "most casualty producing weapon" claymore, or machine gun. It also goes against everything that I had heard up to that point. But he did have a point. I guess it's a technique, just like a$$holes

[Pete]

I "once" had a claymore mounted on a three foot stick. I stuck the stick up over the top of my position and hit the clacker.

Teaching Point: Do not lean against the blast side of the fighting position. I bounced back and forth inside the position about 4 times.

Another dumb idea that sounded good at the time. Although it does work as a FPF type kind of thing, sort of, I would guess.....let me reflect on it a bit.

Pete
A 12B/18C for many a year.

[The Reaper]

Max:

I think that I would inititiate with the Claymores anyway. The MGs should be placed on tripods with T&Es or with stakes to limit their fields of fire. A good gunner is probably going to rake the KZ from one end to the other anyway.

After firing several hundred Claymores, I would have to say that they are not the panacea many seem to think that they are. I have seen as many as eight of them daisy chained and Series E targets less than 25 meters away receive little or no damage.

The best demo ambushes use a mix of ordnance very similar to what we are seeing in Iraq.

I would add that we found a 155mm HE round dumped on the range, nose plug installed. We had the students place it under a DEH pick-up truck that we have for a target and prime it externally. There were very few pieces of the truck left after it was detonated. As I recall, all we found was the back axle, a Dodge Ram nameplate, and 6" of plug wire. The rest had disappeared. Similar results could be achieved with ANFO briefcases, albeit with more residue.

The Claymore is a good weapon, but it has limitations, as do the MGs. If you have it, a good mix of ordnance on an ambush is a better bet.

HTH.

Pete:

Three feet of standoff from a pound of C-4, 700 pellets, and a plastic case with sharp steel legs pointed back at you? You were a wild man, weren't you?

TR

[Pete]

Originally Posted by The Reaper

Three feet of standoff from a pound of C-4, 700 pellets, and a plastic case with sharp steel legs pointed back at you? You were a wild man, weren't you?

TR

Now there was this time when I was in the 5th Group while on a deployment with 7th Group. For some reason I was picked as a range safety NCO. In fact our team was tagged as safety NCOs for most of the deployment. Seems we were just about the only team that had the required Range safety cards for that post. Still wondering if our 3 shop did that on purpose.

It was a live fire assault with a demo target, I guess thats why I got tagged. They had evaluators moving with them. I was to open the range, wait at the jump off point and make sure the teams actions on target were safe.

As the team moved past I IDed the "demo man" and asked him the time on his firing system. He said "One minute". The team assualted the target and I moved up looking at the demo team as they placed the charges. I was standing behind the "demo man" as he hooked into the ring main, gave "fire in the hole", pulled the fuze lighters, gave "burning" jumps up and runs off.

I leaned down to view the system and went "SHIT". That was no one minute firing system. I turned and got about three good steps before the charges went off. That one put my face in the dirt. The best I got from the team was that they were in a hurry in isolation.

Pete
No room for "demo men" on my team - only engineers.

[The Reaper]

We were running support for a live fire assault on a bunker complex on Bragg off All-American DZ.

Among the issues for the teams to resolve was how to breach a triple standard concertina fence.

They had Bangalores available.

At the end of the problem, they were to destroy a bunker containing an WMD threat. Due to time constraints, we had emplaced the demo, all they had to do was to tie in.

Several teams had executed the mission pretty cleanly.

Then the problem team showed up. I could tell this, because on their movement to the breach point, they were still arguing among themselves.

I noted that the Engineer was carrying seven sections of Bangalore, 100 mph taped together like a bundle of dynamite sticks, but believed that he had done that to make it easier for the team to transport.

They reached the breach point, and the Engineer went forward with a couple of guys to emplace the Bangalore.

The team was pretty close to the point, but it looked to be safe enough.

The countdown ensued, and a very large explosion went off, showering the team with dirt and pieces of blasted concertina.

The Team Sergeant took the opportunity to counsel the Engineer on his knowledge and application of a Bangalore torpedo. It turned out that he had just shoved the bundle of seven sections into the wire and initiated the firing system.

The counseling continued as they cleared the objective.

The Engineer finally reached the WMD bunker and tied in a suprisingly short firing system, and the team was in the process of moving off the objective when the bunker went up.

Since this was the last hit, we had decided to dispose of the remaining demo and the bunker by emplacing a non-standard charge. This was composed of a 55 gallon drum of thickened gasoline, placed upright, with a 40 lb. shaped charge placed underneath it, inverted (liner up). There may have been some other goodies and a large quantity of C-4 in there as well.

In any event, when the charge went off with a massive shock wave, the team was about 100 meters away, and the explosion lifted the roof off of the bunker and a large rolling fireball climbed about 100 meters into the sky with a beautiful mushroom shaped cloud around it, and pieces of debris (some flaming) started landing around them. The whole thing just kind of hung there (except for the debris) and we all stood in awe admiring it.

Well, except for the team, which had picked up the pace of their departure significantly.

And especially the Team Sergeant, who had been in the back of the movement formation, and the Engineer, who had been toward the front, and was trying to stay ahead of the TS, who by the tone of his voice, was not amused.

It seems that he thought that the Engineer had rigged this evil thing and after the Bangalore incident, was offering to teach him some new hand to hand combat techniques.

I have never seen a man with a ruck run so fast before. I am not sure if he waited for the team at the LZ, or just ran back to the team room.

Fun with demo!

TR

[longrange1947]

Originally Posted by Max_Tab

I'm currently on staff duty, so I'm going through some old threads that I have missed.

I was at JRTC working with some British SAS who were attached to us, and we did numerous live fires. We did the same thing. Well it got to be a joke to see how many trees we could knock down. After about 13 pine trees met there maker, our OC's told us not to do it anymore, because range control was bitching. Heck we even blew down a small trees using all the extra blasting caps taped around the base. ...............

The idea of placing a tree between you and the claymore was to prevent backblast and the ambush being closer to the kill zone. This was sometimes required due to the thickness fo the brush. NOT to lay the claymore against the tree, unless it was one of those mongaso trees that prevailed in parts of SEA.

Another technique was to set the clarymore verticlally at a bend to get a longer pattern down the trail. This could be mixed with CS powder in a can and launched by the det cord to demoralize, however be awre that handling PWs with powdered CS sucked.

Also be aware of prevailing winds or air movement in the area.

Originally Posted by Max_Tab

......

On a completely differant tangent, the SAS Sgt Maj told us to not initiate an ambush with the claymore, . When I asked him why, he said that after the claymore's go off, the smoke and dust obscure the kill zone. He wanted us to initiate with the machine gun, and save the claymores for the end. His experience was Africa (real world). Anybody, have any opinions on this?

Actually the dust, dirt and smoke is a good idea as it obscures the vision of the personnel in the kill zone. This causes their effective return fire to be dmiminished as they become disoriented while you, the attacker, will know exactly where the enemy is located. To see this better, get two guys and give them clubs. Place a blanket over one of the guys head and let them attack each other, which would you rather be, with or without the blanket?

Setting up additional explosives, ie granades which is tied to the det cord of the claymores, adds more confusion, especially if placed in the likely hide spots for that area of the trail. This can be done in addition to the CS powder.

Have fun!!

[Jack Moroney (RIP)]

I know that this is going to date me, but what the hell maybe you will all be kind to a FOG. I can remember when the claymore was first introduced to us in Germany 1965; it was a very bad day. The individual who was demonstrating them thought that face this side towards enemy meant face it away from him and consequently faced it towards the grandstands taking out 35 troops wounded. Now it gets even better; this was not the day to be the range control guy. Later on that afternoon US 105s dropped 6 rounds into a bivouac area killing one and injuring several. The truck ferrying the injured from the claymore incident rolled over, complicating the injuries even more. Yours truly was the saftey officer for the company 81mm mortar firing and while enroute to the site where the mortars were setting up, German 175s fired short, cutting large chunks out of the mortar tracks and injuring two of my troops. As I was coming up to the firing point the medic was running the other way to get out of the impact area and I had to tackle him to find out what was going on. That night, as we were firing illum the wind shifted and landed our flares in the ammo dump, fortunately after they had burned out.

Jack Moroney-just another day in the life of a 2LT.

[Pete]

Originally Posted by longrange1947

Setting up additional explosives, ie granades which is tied to the det cord of the claymores, adds more confusion, especially if placed in the likely hide spots for that area of the trail. This can be done in addition to the CS powder.

Have fun!!

Care must be used with grenades, det cord and claymores. A "demo man" who shall remain nameless was conducting his portion of demolition training for the company. It was a mechanical ambush and had a bunch of nasty items to include grenades, det cord and claymores.

As just an engineer from another team, I was following the instruction but not involved, I was keeping an eye on my guys.

As the guys were setting out the stuff the hairs on the back of my neck stood up and I mentioned to the demo man that it just didn't look right. He was like "No problem, I've done this many times."

We finished up, headed back to the ditch and with a hearty "Fire in the Hole" the ambush was touched off. Everybody jumped up and headed down range. It was at this point that I had to step in and told everybody to stop and wait until the range was checked.

he demo man and I headed down range. He's just toolin' along with a big smile on his face and I'm a bit slower because I'm looking at the ground. When we got to the ambush position I shouted at him to stop and look around. We were standing in the middle of a bunch of hand grenades that were semi cooked off.

When the claymores fired a bunch of the steel balls scattered and hit the grenades in a number of ways. There were some with the spoons half off, spoons gone and a hole near the fuze charge and any variation in between. He backed out a lot slower than he went in.

While the company continued training in another location the next few hours were right interesting.

[longrange1947]

Hmmmm, grenades placed in the pattern of the claymores is a bad idea for the reason sited. It would also be redundant and asking for a failure. Grenades are for the areas hidden or in defilade of the pattern.

Good point there Pete.

[The Reaper]

As the former safety officer for Demo Committee, I can Amen that.

I will never forget trying to count the delayed explosions after the demo ambush went off.

And no one ever went downrange before we checked. Many times, I would ask if that was seven "crumps" or only six.

I have seen M67 frags cut in half by the det cord wrap, and some with a piece of shredded tape being the only thing holding the spoon down.

Fortunately, as the good Colonel required of me, we lost no fingers, toes, or demo.

TR

[casey]

LOL Pete -

No problem, I've done this many times

Is there anyone who has ever - ever heard these words on a demo range and not had bad shit happen?????

[longrange1947]

One point I forgot to make was that we never initiated with explosives. Always with a weapon. Weapons usually go bang sometimes explosives do not. The clays would go with the autos.

It is a bad thing to be clacking and not getting a response.