Pat Tilman VS Ali,

QRQ 30 · 04-26-2004, 08:06

Time to stir the pot. Things are boring. Pat Tilman made a great sacrifice and should be remembered for that. In fact he made the ultimate sacrifice. My son asked what makes him more heroic than a neighbor who left behind a wife and children. Probably n othing.

We need to remember, however, that, like Jessica Lynch, he did nothing to "Toot his own horn". The hulabaloo iwas created by the media. Tilman had a conviction and he stuck to it.

Since more seems to be made of his financial sacrifice than his actual military career I would like to submit a man who did likewise - Cassius Clay aka Mohammed Ali. I was on active duty when he resisted the draft, and like most others I hated and despised what he had done.

Many years later I saw a movie entitled: "I Am the Greatest", which explained some of the reasons for Ali's actions. Ali had a conviction and, like Tilman, he stuck to it. Agree or disagree he was correct in the fact that his conviction was overturned. To understand some of his racist remarks you have to have lived in the day.

Ali could have reported for active duty and never seen a shot fired in anger. That would have been the easy way out. Instead, he gave up more money per round he would have fought, than the 2,3 mil. multi year contract Tilman gave up. He also sat in prison during the what would have been the height of his career.

Radar Rider · 04-26-2004, 08:21

Pat Tillman had a choice, and he chose to serve the USA. Cassius Clay played an entirely different card.

Hell, Elvis Presley was drafted, and he served as a soldier.

Pat Tillman embodied the idea of selfless service. God Bless Patrick Tillman and his family.

QRQ 30 · 04-26-2004, 08:28

RR: You get no argument from me. However Cassius Clay also had a choice. He could have gone to Canada or almost any other country in the world and continued to fight. Instead he chose prison for his convictions.

If I were looking for a roll model to present to others I would choose Tilman over Clay. Nevertheless Clay made serious sacrifices for his convictions.

Radar Rider · 04-26-2004, 09:00

No argument here, Sir. Cassius Clay followed his own beliefs, and lost the title because of that. That is very telling. I just think it is kinda weird that a conscientious objector will beat the shit out of another man for a living.

QRQ 30 · 04-26-2004, 09:14

Well Radar: I'm not sure he was a C.O. in the true sense of the word. He was a black activist. He joined the Black Muslims, changed his name and within a week was "re-classified" from a non-draftable rating to a draftable one and told to report. His contention was that the move was political and eventually the supreme court agreed. I still get upset when I hear his statement that he had nothing against VC and none of them ever tried to hurt him. Although, if you think too long about it you may begin to agree that we need to take care of ourselves.

Good morning Radar. I'm glad that at least someone else is alive out there and has an opinion.

Sacamuelas · 04-26-2004, 09:47

Quote:

Originally posted by QRQ 30

Good morning Radar. I'm glad that at least someone else is alive out there and has an opinion.

I am here, Sir. I definitely have an opinion on this subject. Just collecting my thoughts... counting to ten... breathing deep...having to keep saying , "serenity now...SERENITY NOW!!! "

LOL

Quick synopsis.. I do not agree with the idea of trying to justify the selfish convictions of Ali by comparing them to the courageous and self-sacrificial decision made by Ranger Tilman. Ali's personal and more importantly political decision was made because he was self-centered, self-promoting, and egotistical. Ali welcomed the publicity and gave interviews throughout the process. I will be back to Stir later, if no one else has decided to debate the issue with you, Sir.

QRQ 30 · 04-26-2004, 10:03

ALRIGHT!!! GRWWWWW!!!

I would never attempt to equate Ali with Tilman. I merely make a very narrow comparison to the riches he gave up (temporarily to those Tilman gave up. I keep hearing of the fortune Tilman gave up. That's all.

Quote:

Originally posted by Sacamuelas
I am here, Sir. I definitely have an opinion on this subject. Just collecting my thoughts... counting to ten... breathing deep...having to keep saying , "serenity now...SERENITY NOW!!! " LOL

Quick synopsis.. I do not agree with the idea of trying to equate the selfish convictions of Ali by comparing them to the courageous and self-sacrificial decision made by Ranger Tilman. Ali's personal and more importantly political decision was made because he was self-centered, self-promoting, and egotistical. Ali welcomed the publicity and gave interviews throughout the process. I will be back to Stir later, if no one else has decided to debate the issue with you, Sir.

Sacamuelas · 04-26-2004, 10:18

Quote:

Originally posted by QRQ 30
ALRIGHT!!! GRWWWWW!!!

LOL... come on QRQ30. You woke me up out of my morning routine at work and got me to start drinking some coffee!! haha Blast away. Tell me how great M. Ali was because he could have draft dodged like the rich kids but decided to do it like the poor man (goto jail).

Jimbo · 04-26-2004, 10:20

Kerry threw his ribbons over the White House fence and protested the war after serving in it. Do you admire his conviction?

rubberneck · 04-26-2004, 10:26

I guess the biggest difference between the two (other than Ali's choice being self-centered) is that Ali knew sooner or later he would fight again. Ranger Tillman on the other hand knew going in that he might never live to see another playing field (may he rest in peace). If Ali was facing the death penalty and still refused to serve than the comparison is more apt but he wasn't. While both risked losing some money only one risked losing the most important thing in life. Thats my $.02 which isn't even worth that.

QRQ 30 · 04-26-2004, 10:35

The conversation among we soldiers of the time was WHY? He could have accepted service, he could have been assigned to Special Services and even continued to fight.

I'm not sure his actions were self-centered as much as a protest of the way blacks were treated differently than whites. This was still the case in the sixties.

BTW: I do respect Ali more than Kerry. Kerry insulted the integrady of 3 million veterans who served honorably in Vietnam. There may have bee some atrocities and some drug use but it was not universal as he said.

Sacamuelas · 04-26-2004, 10:50

Quote:

Originally posted by QRQ 30
BTW: I do respect Ali more than Kerry.

Now THAT is stick stirring!!
A documented draft dodger compared to a combat experienced soldier. I firmly stand against everything Kerry has done SINCE he got out of the Navy...but damn.

*** edited to correct a statement , thanks footmobile

Footmobile · 04-26-2004, 10:57

Quote:

Originally posted by Sacamuelas
A documented draft dodger compared to a combat experienced former SEAL.

Kerry was no SEAL, he was a Swift Boat skipper.

Might be confusing him w/ Bob Kerry who was a SEAL and now a Congressman or Senator, can't remeber which.

QRQ 30 · 04-26-2004, 11:29

1. Ali didn't run. He stayed here and fought for what he believed and he accepted what he got.

Kerrt:

I have scars on my right arm and hand from frags received at Khe Sahn that are probably worse than any Kerry received. The S-1 at FOB-3 wanted everyone who was treated in the dispensary put in for Purple Hearts. I declined since my wounds were from the new M-33 grenade and at that time only the good guys had them. I was embarrassed. I once had a room mate who said that the PH was an indication that one fell asleep in basic training. (of course in just jokong). I believe Kerry had a political agenda perhaps before ever entering the Navy. He knew that three PH medals were a ticket home. As for the other medals, maybe or maybe not. I had a "strap-hanger" along once on a recon mission. They did that to give staff personnel a taste of what it was like. We made contact and when we returned I was asked to write the Lt. up for an award. I asked what I should write and they said to just write down what happened. I did!! I wrote that the Lt hid behind a tree at the first burst of fire and didn't move until the fight was over. I don't think he got his medal but I got an express ticket to Khe Sahn.

rubberneck · 04-26-2004, 11:40

Quote:

I'm not sure his actions were self-centered as much as a protest of the way blacks were treated differently than whites. This was still the case in the sixties.

I don't dispute that but it always seemd to me that he was also more concerned with himself than with the plight of blacks. I am not saying that objection to military service in and of itself is dishonorable (most would agree that German citizens that refused to fight for Hitler had acted in a honorable manner) but the manner (self centered and self promoting) in which Ali carried on could be considered either dishonorable or less than honorable.