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Old 07-08-2007, 10:12   #1
The Reaper
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Leave Iraq and Brace for a Bigger Bloodbath

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...070601994.html

THE CASE FOR HUMAN RIGHTS
Leave Iraq and Brace for a Bigger Bloodbath

By Natan Sharansky
Sunday, July 8, 2007; Page B03

Iraqis call Ali Hassan al-Majeed "Chemical Ali," and few wept when the notorious former general received five death sentences last month for ordering the use of nerve agents against his government's Kurdish citizens in the late 1980s. His trial came as a reckoning and a reminder -- summoning up the horrors of Saddam Hussein's rule even as it underscored the way today's heated Iraq debates in Washington have left the key issue of human rights on the sidelines. People of goodwill can certainly disagree over how to handle Iraq, but human rights should be part of any responsible calculus. Unfortunately, some leaders continue to play down the gross violations in Iraq under Hussein's republic of fear and ignore the potential for a human rights catastrophe should the United States withdraw.

As the hideous violence in Iraq continues, it has become increasingly common to hear people argue that the world was better off with Hussein in power and (even more remarkably) that Iraqis were better off under his fist. In his final interview as U.N. secretary general, Kofi Annan acknowledged that Iraq "had a dictator who was brutal" but said that Iraqis under the Baathist dictatorship "had their streets, they could go out, their kids could go to school."

This line of argument began soon after the U.S.-led invasion in 2003. By early 2004, some prominent political and intellectual leaders were arguing that women's rights, gay rights, health care and much else had suffered in post-Hussein Iraq.

Following in the footsteps of George Bernard Shaw, Walter Duranty and other Western liberals who served as willing dupes for Joseph Stalin, some members of the human rights community are whitewashing totalitarianism. A textbook example came last year from John Pace, who recently left his post as U.N. human rights chief in Iraq. "Under Saddam," he said, according to the Associated Press, "if you agreed to forgo your basic freedom of expression and thought, you were physically more or less OK."

The truth is that in totalitarian regimes, there are no human rights. Period. The media do not criticize the government. Parliaments do not check executive power. Courts do not uphold due process. And human rights groups don't file reports.

For most people, life under totalitarianism is slavery with no possibility of escape. That is why despite the carnage in Iraq, Iraqis are consistently less pessimistic about the present and more optimistic about the future of their country than Americans are. In a face-to-face national poll of 5,019 people conducted this spring by Opinion Research Business, a British market-research firm, only 27 percent of Iraqis said they believed that "that their country is actually in a state of civil war," and by nearly 2 to 1 (49 percent to 26 percent), the Iraqis surveyed said they preferred life under their new government to life under the old tyranny. That is why, at a time when many Americans are abandoning the vision of a democratic Iraq, most Iraqis still cling to the hope of a better future. They know that under Hussein, there was no hope.

By consistently ignoring the fundamental moral divide that separates societies in which people are slaves from societies in which people are free, some human rights groups undermine the very cause they claim to champion. Consider one 2005 Amnesty International report on Iraq. It notes that in the lawless climate of the first months after Hussein's overthrow, reports of kidnappings, rapes and killings of women and girls by criminal gangs rose. Iraqi officers at a police station in Baghdad said in June 2003 that the number of reported rapes "was substantially higher than before the war."

The implication was that human rights may not really be improving in post-Hussein Iraq. But the organization ignored the possibility that reports of rape at police stations may have increased for the simple reason that under Hussein it was the regime -- which includes the police -- that was doing the raping. When Hussein's son Uday went on his legendary raping sprees, victims were not about to report the crime.

Of course, Hussein's removal has created a host of difficult strategic challenges, and numerous human rights atrocities have been committed since his ouster. But let us be under no illusion of what life under Hussein was like. He was a mass murderer who tortured children in front of their parents, gassed Kurds, slaughtered Shiites, started two wars with his neighbors and launched Scud missiles into downtown Riyadh and Tel Aviv. The price for the stability that Hussein supposedly brought to the region was mass graves, hundreds of thousands of dead in Iraq, and terrorism and war outside it. Difficult as the challenges are today -- with Iran and Syria trying to stymie democracy in Iraq, with al-Qaeda turning Iraq into the central battleground in its holy war of terrorism against the free world, and with sectarian militias bent on murder and mayhem -- there is still hope that tomorrow may be better.

No one can know for sure whether President Bush's "surge" of U.S. troops in Iraq will succeed. But those who believe that human rights should play a central role in international affairs should be doing everything in their power to maximize the chances that it will. For one of the consequences of failure could well be catastrophe.

A precipitous withdrawal of U.S. forces could lead to a bloodbath that would make the current carnage pale by comparison. Without U.S. troops in place to quell some of the violence, Iranian-backed Shiite militias would dramatically increase their attacks on Sunnis; Sunni militias, backed by the Saudis or others, would retaliate in kind, drawing more and more of Iraq into a vicious cycle of violence. If Iraq descended into full-blown civil war, the chaos could trigger similar clashes throughout the region as Sunni-Shiite tensions spill across Iraq's borders. The death toll and the displacement of civilians could climb exponentially.

Perhaps the greatest irony of the political debate over Iraq is that many of Bush's critics, who accused his administration of going blindly to war without considering what would happen once Hussein's regime was toppled, now blindly support a policy of withdrawing from Iraq without considering what might follow.

In this respect, the debate over Iraq is beginning to look a lot like the debate about the Vietnam War in the 1960s and '70s. Then, too, the argument in the United States focused primarily on whether U.S. forces should pull out. But many who supported that withdrawal in the name of human rights did not foresee the calamity that followed, which included genocide in Cambodia, tens of thousands slaughtered in Vietnam by the North Vietnamese and the tragedy of hundreds of thousands of "boat people."

In the final analysis, U.S. leaders will pursue a course in Iraq that they believe best serves U.S. interests. My hope is that as they do, they will make the human rights dimension a central part of any decision. The consequences of not doing so might prove catastrophic to Iraqis, to regional peace and, ultimately, to U.S. security.
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Old 07-08-2007, 12:26   #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Reaper
Perhaps the greatest irony of the political debate over Iraq is that many of Bush's critics, who accused his administration of going blindly to war without considering what would happen once Hussein's regime was toppled, now blindly support a policy of withdrawing from Iraq without considering what might follow.

In this respect, the debate over Iraq is beginning to look a lot like the debate about the Vietnam War in the 1960s and '70s. Then, too, the argument in the United States focused primarily on whether U.S. forces should pull out. But many who supported that withdrawal in the name of human rights did not foresee the calamity that followed, which included genocide in Cambodia, tens of thousands slaughtered in Vietnam by the North Vietnamese and the tragedy of hundreds of thousands of "boat people."
Good article, TR.

As the saying goes, Those that ignore history are doomed to repeat it.
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Old 07-08-2007, 12:32   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Reaper
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...070601994.html
If Iraq descended into full-blown civil war, the chaos could trigger similar clashes throughout the region as Sunni-Shiite tensions spill across Iraq's borders.
Saudi Arabia has a substantial Shiite minority, largely located in the oil producing regions. The consequences of disruption of the flow of Saudi oil would be painful - a global recession, perhaps more severe than was experienced in 1973.

The humanitarian argument will surely play better in Peoria - but I think brazen self-interest is a valid reason to seek victory.
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Old 07-08-2007, 14:27   #4
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And no mention of what will happen in Afghanistan if we pull out of Iraq?
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Old 07-09-2007, 11:19   #5
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I love the Green Beret's

edit to add: someone jumped on my screenname. He will be doing pushup's until tomorrow.
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Old 07-09-2007, 11:46   #6
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http://www.breitbart.com/article.php...cle=1&catnum=2


Iraqi minister in civil war warning

Jul 9 01:02 PM US/Eastern


Iraq's foreign minister Hoshyar Zebari has warned that a quick American military withdrawal from the country could lead to civil war and the collapse of the government.

Attacks in Baghdad killed 13 people on Monday as prominent Shiite and Sunni politicians called on Iraqi civilians to take up arms to defend themselves after a weekend of violence that claimed more than 220 lives, including one of the deadliest attacks of the four-year Iraqi conflict.

The burst of violence comes at a sensitive time. US forces are waging offensives in and around Baghdad aimed at uprooting militants and bringing calm to the capital.

Mr Zebari said Iraqis "understand the huge pressure that will increase more and more in the United States" ahead of the progress report by the US ambassador and top commander in Iraq.

"We have held discussion with members of Congress and explained to them the dangers of a quick pull-out (from Iraq) and leaving a security vacuum," Zebari said.

He continued: "The dangers could be a civil war, dividing the country, regional wars and the collapse of the state. In our estimations, until Iraqi forces are ready, there is a responsibility on the United States to stand with the (government) as the forces are being built."

The Iraqi calls for the arming of civilians to fight insurgents reflected the growing frustration with Iraqi security forces' inability to prevent extremists' attacks - such as Saturday's devastating suicide truck bombing in the Shiite town of Armili, north of Baghdad, that killed more than 160 people, according to the latest toll from police and officials.

The latest attacks in Baghdad followed a surge of bloodshed in the capital on Sunday, when around 60 Iraqis were killed in bombings, shootings and kidnap-slayings. A roadside bomb exploded in the central Nahda district in the morning killing a passer-by and wounding three others. Several hours later, an explosive-wired car detonated in the same area, killing two people and wounding six, a police official said.

In southern Baghdad, a suicide bomber set off an explosives-packed car into a joint Iraqi army-police patrol, killing four passers-by and a soldier in the violence-torn district of Dora, police said.

And around dawn, police discovered gunmen trying to plant bombs near the security wall surrounding the Sunni district of Azamiyah. In a gunbattle that followed, two soldiers and two policemen were killed, police said. There were no immediate reports about the casualties among the gunmen.

© Copyright Press Association Ltd 2007, All Rights Reserved
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Old 07-09-2007, 11:47   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Max_Tab
edit to add: someone jumped on my screenname. He will be doing pushup's until tomorrow.
Confused about your post, PM me if you need help.

TR
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"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming; but who does actually strive to do the deeds; who knows great enthusiasms, the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat." - President Theodore Roosevelt, 1910

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Old 07-09-2007, 12:45   #8
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A textbook example came last year from John Pace, who recently left his post as U.N. human rights chief in Iraq. "Under Saddam," he said, according to the Associated Press, "if you agreed to forgo your basic freedom of expression and thought, you were physically more or less OK."
These guys are so far out of touch with reality that a statement like this actually makes sense. It truly boggles the mind that anyone in power could make a public statement like that and keep their jobs.
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