Stopping Power Myth

[82ndtrooper]

This particular individual has been posting over at Barret Rifles and 1911 Forums by posting these type of articles with a link to his websight. He currently holds basic pistol and carbine classes as well as a SERE class that cost upwards of $4,000 for a 3-4 day course.

I PM'd him to ask who his SERE instructors were and if they were graduates of the SWC SERE course. His reply was "If you'd like to vet your self with me then I'll explain who and where are training is being done. He claims 5 years with law enforcement and a laundry list of other qualifications such "ASP instuctor" etc, etc, etc, etc. Here's a decent article regarding "Stopping myth" however it's a bit dated. With all the available instuction for self defense courses from the the likes of Paul Howe and Larry Vickers is 5 years as an law enforcement officer really enough to be training military, law enforcement and civillians ?

I did not supply his link to his organization. If your interested the Google button is on the right side of the keypad.

By Tom Perroni

Edit/deleted by Team Sergeant, reason, it's bullshit and Tom is full of himself. 82Trooper, post a "copy and paste" link next time.

[Kyobanim]

I would think the type of round would be as much of a determining factor in this disscussion as placement or caliber. Just my 2 cents.

[nmap]

We all know the average number of rounds fired in a gunfight is 10 and that Law Enforcement has an 80% MISS rate meaning 2 in 10 rounds hit the subject so, as my dad put it, I just doubled my odds in a gunfight if I can shoot to stop the threat at the Head & Spine. 20 rounds = 4 hits instead of 2.

It appears that the supposed consensus regarding rounds fired in a gunfight does not exist. Using google on the phrase: "average rounds in a gunfight" resulted in a variety of returns, with claims of 3 rounds and 3.5 rounds among them.

I cannot help but wonder about the divergence between Mr. Perroni's statement and the others. And if such a fundamental claim is not well founded, the rest of his report might be questioned.

[The Reaper]

I guess stats are fine for the average shooter.

Most of his material seems to be borrowed from other instructors, and he seems to be arguing both sides of several points.

In the military, you will get no sexy expanding bullets, and no choice in firearms. All soldiers should be proficient with a Beretta M-9 and shoot till they drop. That may take an entire mag of 9mm Ball, since as noted, a pistol is not what you bring if you know you are going to a gunfight.

Two words: shot placement.

Having said that, my personal choice is to carry as much pistol as I can conceal, normally a high cap .45 ACP. I am a decent shooter, but shootings do not normally take place in broad daylight on a flat range with good footing, eye and ear pro, a marked target, a loaded weapon at the ready, and most importantly, no return fire, so I will take any edge I can get.

Just my .02, YMMV.

TR

[Peregrino]

Yes, he can string together an article using readilly available data and a "superglue" of personal opinion. So what? Personally I've seen all of the commercial instruction from individuals with LEO backgrounds I ever want to see. I'll stick with soldier skills and learn from/practice with other soldiers. My .02 - Peregrino

[kgoerz]

82ndtrooper, Only one of them is ex Mil. He was never in a position to go to SERE. With all of the four and six hour blocks of instructions they are listing. I believe if one of them was SERE Qualified. It would be listed in Bold Black letters for all to see.

More Tactical Instructors that have a laundry list of Qauls. Try breaking them down.

and has held positions ranging from Armed Security Officer= Security Guard

Alarm Respondent =Guard for a Wealthy Gated Community

former xxxxxxxxxx Police Officer with experience in investigations, surveillance and firearms training==== Isn't that like saying a former Fire Man trained to operate a Water Hose.

Simulation Safety Instructor===One time in Sims Camp.

[HOLLiS]

Originally Posted by The Reaper

I guess stats are fine for the average shooter.


TR

Most affirmative Sir, One can be 99% right but 100% dead.

I thought if one has no faith, they can always believe in stats.

[Gene Econ]

Originally Posted by 82ndtrooper

I PM'd him to ask who his SERE instructors were and if they were graduates of the SWC SERE course. His reply was "If you'd like to vet your self with me then I'll explain who and where are training is being done.

82nd Trooper:

Well, if someone told me that one I would take a dump (semi-solid) into a box and send it to the arrogant shit -- one turd to another so to speak.

OK now -- how many ways can you say "point the barrel into the target and move your finger without pointing the barrel somewhere else." ????

For combat shooting you add "point it real fast and move your finger real fast."

Advice? Let someone else pay this guy a couple of K to learn how to shoot someone at three feet distance. I don't see you as someone who would respond to such arrogance.

Now my techiques -- only available from me at a price of $2K per day -- is to fill a .45 magazine with lead to make the pistol weigh more and remove it from my SF approved kevlar holster by the barrel and either Tommahawk the assailant with the butt of the pistol or throw the pistol at the assailant using the Tommahawk stance and methodology.

Can you imagine a fellow getting smacked right between the running lights with a five pound M-1911? Brutal and probably against the Geneva Conventions. You would kill that guy deader than with a .25 Raven -- let me tell you.

Gene on M-1911 Chucking

[82ndtrooper]

Originally Posted by Gene Econ

82nd Trooper:

Well, if someone told me that one I would take a dump (semi-solid) into a box and send it to the arrogant shit -- one turd to another so to speak.

OK now -- how many ways can you say "point the barrel into the target and move your finger without pointing the barrel somewhere else." ????

For combat shooting you add "point it real fast and move your finger real fast."

Advice? Let someone else pay this guy a couple of K to learn how to shoot someone at three feet distance. I don't see you as someone who would respond to such arrogance.

Now my techiques -- only available from me at a price of $2K per day -- is to fill a .45 magazine with lead to make the pistol weigh more and remove it from my SF approved kevlar holster by the barrel and either Tommahawk the assailant with the butt of the pistol or throw the pistol at the assailant using the Tommahawk stance and methodology.

Can you imagine a fellow getting smacked right between the running lights with a five pound M-1911? Brutal and probably against the Geneva Conventions. You would kill that guy deader than with a .25 Raven -- let me tell you.

Gene on M-1911 Chucking

Mr. Econ:

Thanks for giving me a laugh, and I"m sure others as well.

I'm just suspicious of firearms instructors and self defense experts that have only 5 years of Law enforcement experience holding them selves out as "Experts" when so many schools by others with atual combat and trigger time are available. Paul Howe comes to mind. Heck, I'll even go to Keith Goerz house and get more training than most the "Tactical" type LEO's that have never seen a two way range in their entire careers. Keith, when you get back let me know I'm still willing to come down to Raeford later this month or August.

Mr. Perroni's SERE course is no longer listed on his sight, but trust me it was two months ago and it cost $3,495 for 3 or 4 day's of training.

I have taken both the Blackwater Tactical I and II courses and Larry Vickers Tactical Pistol course in Fayettville last year. Great courses and both with differing methods of training and differing mindsets and drills that enhance accuracy and reaction time to deadly threat and deadly force issues.

I'm no "Expert" in fact still a novice, but with a little training none the less. I'm just suspicious of most of these schools unless I see credentials that are more like Paul Howe, Larry Vickers, or TEAM SERGEANT. Keith Goerz is also included, my friend. After all, it's my money for this type of instruction. Not to sound like I deserve the best, but again, it's my money.

[Goggles Pizano]

Originally Posted by kgoerz

former xxxxxxxxxx Police Officer with experience in investigations, surveillance and firearms training==== Isn't that like saying a former Fire Man trained to operate a Water Hose.

Simulation Safety Instructor===One time in Sims Camp.

Hell a patrol officer with a year on the street can claim those qualifications! You get a job=your investigating a possible crime. You can find any concealed location to conduct surveillance of a drug corner, and you have to qualify with your weapon four times a year. Caveat emptor 82nd trooper.

[Guy]

Originally Posted by 82ndtrooper

I PM'd him to ask who his SERE instructors were and if they were graduates of the SWC SERE course. His reply was "If you'd like to vet your self with me then I'll explain who and where are training is being done.

Invite him here or give me the link....

Stay safe.

[chiefrick194]

The data is 1989. 18 years makes it outdated. A Police Officer with five years of experience is just off of probation. My latest training recommended hitting the cranial vault to disrupt the central nervous system. I agree with TR that shot placement is critical and can only be achieved with practice. I like Recon Econ's theory of 1911 Chunking only I use the Kell Light. Since I cannot run as fast in my senior years, I have become quiet accurate with the Kell Light and have ended several foot pursuits with a flick of the wrist. I am willing to teach the skill for only $750 a day.

[HOLLiS]

Originally Posted by chiefrick194

The data is 1989. 18 years makes it outdated. A Police Officer with five years of experience is just off of probation. My latest training recommended hitting the cranial vault to disrupt the central nervous system. I agree with TR that shot placement is critical and can only be achieved with practice. I like Recon Econ's theory of 1911 Chunking only I use the Kell Light. Since I cannot run as fast in my senior years, I have become quiet accurate with the Kell Light and have ended several foot pursuits with a flick of the wrist. I am willing to teach the skill for only $750 a day.

I wonder if it is a "old guy" thing, the appreciation of the Whack Value (WV) of any firearm. With the new synthetic furniture on firearms and my first issue of the M16 (prior was the M14 .. really great whack factor) I felt a little less secure with the M16 if there was a failure to fire problem. Maybe it goes back to listening to others who where in the Korean war and war in the Pacific. The other factor, the generally feelings of the time, pistols were of little use.

[KSC]

Can anyone comment on the 10-15 seconds for bleeding out from the heart? For some reason, I was thinking a bullet hitting the superior aorta or right ventricle(or maybe left, whichever one leads to the aorta) would cause BP to drop to 0 almost instantly and unconsciousness momentarily after. And for some reason a ruptured subclavian artery would cause unconsiousness in the first 10-15 seconds. As far as caliber not making a difference... Maybe not as much from pistol to pistol, but 5.56 to 7.62 seems to be rather substantial from what I've seen. Of all the bullet induced trauma I've seen (which is not much) the 30mm seems to have the best results, so why not get as close to that size round as you can?

[The Reaper]

Originally Posted by KSC

Can anyone comment on the 10-15 seconds for bleeding out from the heart? For some reason, I was thinking a bullet hitting the superior aorta or right ventricle(or maybe left, whichever one leads to the aorta) would cause almost BP to drop to 0 almost instantly and unconsciousness momentarily after. And for some reason that a ruptured subclavian artery would cause unconsiousness in the first 10-15 seconds. As far as caliber not making a difference... Maybe not as much from pistol to pistol, but 5.56 to 7.62 seems to be rather substantial from what I've seen. Of all the bullet induced trauma I've seen (which is not much) the 30mm seems to have the best results, so why not get as close to that as you can?

Not a physician, but as I understand it, even after the heart stops, there is sufficient oxygenation in the blood to allow for 30 seconds or more of conscious effort.

I am not a subscriber to the 7.62 over 5.56 argument, if the right ammo is used and the bullets are placed properly. That argument has been flogged to death here and elsewhere.

TR