EST 2000

[frostfire]

not 'real' weapon, but simulator

Gentlemen,

I imagine most, if not all QPs here train with actual issued firearm and live ammo. However, for those who are instructors and have been working with the system a lot, could you tell me tips, tricks, hints, pros/cons, and limitations of that system. I've gone over the manual, FM, online resources, and have done all the stages myself. I want to learn the "practical' stuff I need to anticipate, especially any advices in training young, inexperienced folks to be proficient in marksmanship. You can PM me, too.

Background:
I'm given 2 months to become an expert on the system. The goal is to train future 2nd Lt, DI, MP, armor officer etc. to become proficient in BRM, and be able to train others. In essence, to train the trainer. Training will also utilize service rifle with .22 upper, and for those who're squared away, high power matches. If you need further info/credentials, I'll send you via PM.

[jbour13]

The simulations lack realism, no brainer I'm sure.

I found the use of the BRM and zeroing trainer a benefit when doing the playback. It allowed me to see where the individual broke the shot and what they were doing prior to the shot (the movement tracking).

It is another tool to utilize, and I believe it may help establish a few good habits. The only thing that I know to be true in simulation vs. the real shooting, is people tend to get flinchy with live ammo. Hot gas expansion and ejecting brass just make some people uneasy. It makes me friggin' loopy with excitement, but I love shooting.

Phased training would help. Let them learn to shoot with just the ACU's, then add the IBA and MICH helmet to teach them the difference in how the body is forced to be positioned. Add stresses like shouting commands over their ear to engage a target, make them reload at random times (they don't take into account stoppages according the the contractor). Make them do some flutter kicks, side straddle hop, push-ups, anything to induce physical effort and make it more realistic. Take away a gunner, and force someone to conduct medical tasks, get the SAW or 240 up and lay down fire.

Biggest thing I see, people treat it as a game and giggle and laugh. It should be educational and fun, but professional as well.

Are you working with the standard version, or do you have vehicle mock-ups, 360 system, etc?

Hope this helps you some.

V/R

SSG B

[jwt5]

My Battalion CSM loved the EST we had on Stewart. We went all the time.

The only time it was actually beneficial was when we took the time to go through the marksmanship training part of it and the people running the show took the time to save our zeros. That way when we would do the simulations they would find out who was online and plug our zero into the weapon that we were on. Made it a lot more fun/practical. Nothing more frustrating then having to do "Kentucky Windage" on a simulator. It just became a free for all.

Back to my hidesight...

[The Reaper]

There is no way to induce stress like a two-way range.

Simunitions, for all its faults, will crank up the stress and usually show you who is good, and who is just faking it.

TR

[Gene Econ]

Originally Posted by frostfire

not 'real' weapon, but simulator I imagine most, if not all QPs here train with actual issued firearm and live ammo. However, for those who are instructors and have been working with the system a lot, could you tell me tips, tricks, hints, pros/cons, and limitations of that system. I've gone over the manual, FM, online resources, and have done all the stages myself. I want to learn the "practical' stuff I need to anticipate, especially any advices in training young, inexperienced folks to be proficient in marksmanship. You can PM me, too. Background: I'm given 2 months to become an expert on the system. The goal is to train future 2nd Lt, DI, MP, armor officer etc. to become proficient in BRM, and be able to train others. In essence, to train the trainer. Training will also utilize service rifle with .22 upper, and for those who're squared away, high power matches. If you need further info/credentials, I'll send you via PM.

Frostfire:

The best thing you can do is to learn how to work every single program it offers. If you know how to set it up and get it running, start working the programs so you will be confident when you get ten people on your firing line at one time. Also, learn how to program the system so you can make up your own courses of fire. For now, there is no need for you to learn how to program the the tactical scenarios. Once you are super confident you can run the types of basic marksmanship programs you want and you have learned all of the feedback capabilities of an EST, then learn how to create your own tactical scenarios.

Good luck with the .22 uppers. I take it you have magazines that work with them? And that they work? He, he, he.

Gene

[frostfire]

Thanks for the input, jbour13. We work with 1 station, standard system. Good point about people not being serious. It happened, but so far I didn't see it hampering the training at all.

You cover what perhaps is the future of the program. Currently I have to maintain these folks (okay...cadets) interested in marksmanship against other interest such as gaming, girls, dates, intramurals etc., so stress training might not help except for the very dedicated ones. It was made clear to me that I cannot kick anyone out for poor performance. I love this work and don't want to be kicked out myself.

Yes, so far the canting, trigger pressure, NPOA, and follow through trackings are the most useful feature as they pointed out flinching, bucking, etc. readily and the trainees can see their errors themselves. We also use M16 firing blanks to get over with that initial uneasy feelings. Heck, when there're M1A to my right and left at matches, I still got jittery myself.

A case of training problem from last course. A female shooter has short neck and arms. She had problems with maintaining cheek weld and placement/reach of left arm on the A2 heat guard. Have you encountered a similar problem and have any suggestions for her to improve?


Gene Econ Sir,

still working on it. I'm almost 100% confident of just the marksmanship feature. I've run all the courses myself, all in unsupported position with results above experts. Aiming tiny dot had trained me well to have excellent holds when it comes to silhouette. Many credits go to you and Rick.

I also doubt the course will progress that far into the tactical scenarios, not to mention at that point I'm not qualified yet to instruct and can only serve as the system grease monkey as I also do the maintenance. When you say tactical, do you mean the collective (customizable) or the shoot/don't shoot scenarios?

Once we made it clear that the .22 mags are to be untouched after loading, the failure to feed dissappeared. Also had a lot of failure to fire, but the old coach was also a machinist and he worked the firing pin and other parts somehow that they functioned without hiccups after that.

[kgoerz]

Anyone ever use that virtual reality shooting simulator on Bragg? Can't remember what it was called. It was located across the street from the old Stockade in 2002. You put on a helmet and used the screens surrounding you. It was a giant First person Shooter. I don't think that was the permanent set up location, it might of moved. It was very good for testing how fast you could ID a threat, fun as hell to. Million dollar set up.
Weapons that hooked up to it operated and weighed the same as real weapons. Just one light cable was attached to the weapon. Incorporated Mag changes and malfunctions. Recorded shot placement. The floor could be changed to incorporate furniture/obstacals.
Your so called buddies could control where, how many enemy or friendlies appeared and what weapons they carried. Only one person could hook in at a time but they said they would have four hook ups soon.
It was very underused. All we had to do was call and schedule an appointment. Anyone on Bragg might want to look into it, if it's still there. Us and the MP'S seemed to be the only ones using it then. We did recommend the ability to hook in two weapons for transitions.

[frostfire]

Originally Posted by kgoerz

It was very good for testing how fast you could ID a threat, fun as hell to. Million dollar set up.

you might be referring to the EST shoot/don't shoot mode. There're many scenarios from ambush, road checkpoint....to domestic violence.

[Gene Econ]

Originally Posted by frostfire

Currently I have to maintain these folks (okay...cadets) interested in marksmanship against other interest such as gaming, girls, dates, intramurals etc., so stress training might not help except for the very dedicated ones. It was made clear to me that I cannot kick anyone out for poor performance. I love this work and don't want to be kicked out myself.

Dave:

My God, why are you guys so caught up on canting a rifle. You have to cant the damn thing if you are wearing body armor. The EST guys here shit when you cant a rifle, even if you are smoking every target dead center. Typical of the Army -- instead of encouraging someone to continue to be a proven success, focus on something that is of no value and will probably cause a degradation of performance.

If you want to interest cadets, give them a reward after shooting some courses of fire with the EST. Let them shoot the Factory scenario.

Oh yes, about the maximum amount of time which you will get any performance from someone on the EST when running the marksmanship traininig programs will be about 30 minutes. Then let them run a tactical scenario and have an AAR before getting back into marksmanship. This way you can probably do up to four iterations with someone in a day (about four hours of training) before they are burned out. It works.

Gene

[kgoerz]

Originally Posted by frostfire

you might be referring to the EST shoot/don't shoot mode. There're many scenarios from ambush, road checkpoint....to domestic violence.

Might of been. Unless the EST is the one with the Movie screen that records shots. I used that before. This one was a lot bigger and simulated a 360 degree environment. They were working on more Military scenarios also. Most of the scenarios they had were police orientated.
Like I said the building they were using appeared to be a temporary location. It's probably in a different location, if still on Bragg. Rang Control would know for anyone interested. There is a lot of training facilities around Bragg that see little use.
For some reason a lot of new training facilities aren't advertised. That new shoot house they built. Fully furnished, decorated like a real house with cameras. We never knew it was available for use, until hearing it burnt down.
It was only by chance we learned of the old Tobacco Farm near Camp Mackall, great target for rural and CQB hits. We accidentally burnt down a 200 year old house there. We felt like S!#!t for doing that.

[longrange1947]

Originally Posted by kgoerz

Anyone ever use that virtual reality shooting simulator on Bragg? Can't remember what it was called. It was located across the street from the old Stockade in 2002. You put on a helmet and used the screens surrounding you. It was a giant First person Shooter. I don't think that was the permanent set up location, it might of moved. It was very good for testing how fast you could ID a threat, fun as hell to. Million dollar set up.
Weapons that hooked up to it operated and weighed the same as real weapons. Just one light cable was attached to the weapon. Incorporated Mag changes and malfunctions. Recorded shot placement. The floor could be changed to incorporate furniture/obstacals.
Your so called buddies could control where, how many enemy or friendlies appeared and what weapons they carried. Only one person could hook in at a time but they said they would have four hook ups soon.
It was very underused. All we had to do was call and schedule an appointment. Anyone on Bragg might want to look into it, if it's still there. Us and the MP'S seemed to be the only ones using it then. We did recommend the ability to hook in two weapons for transitions.

KG - You should see our new toy, called laser shot. It uses regular ammo and the cameras pinpoint impacts on the wall as a heat signature. This is then ran through the computer and you get a kill according to shot placement. Run scenarios, make entry and go to town, will handle 5.56, 9mm, .45, and I think 7.62mm.

Sorry for the slight hijack.

[Viking]

There is an EST 2000 on Bragg near the SWC NCO Academy and one at Camp Mackall. We use the EST at Mackall as part of Phase II prior to going to the range with the students. They get static classes on all fundamentals of marksmanship for the M-4 and the M-9. The students then utilize the EST to run through zero and qual with the M-4 and qual with the M-9. After using it for three classes I think it helps us fine tune the guys who have problems applying the basics. It points out who are the trigger jerkers and heavy breathers more than anything else. We have a chance to correct some of these prior to going live two days later.

[frostfire]

RTK, jbour13, jwt5,

do you know the maintenance schedule of your EST system(s)? How often do you have to reallign the laser or send the weapons back to the vendor for service?

The A2 simulators here have been having tons of problem from the last 10 months usage; misaligned laser, failure to fire/no recoil, and jammed trigger (won't go to safe even after cocked, but it will go to 3-burst. So the system always recognize the chamber as empty). The M4, OTOH, has been problem-free despite some leaky noise.

These simulators feel pretty tough-built, but anything with laser and pneumatic mechanical parts are bound to be problematic from time to time. However, if the students were really abusing them, I'm gonna make them handle real live baby before class and tell them to treat the simulator the same way.

[jbour13]

I'll run this by the contractor that runs it here at Ft Huachuca. To clarify, this is the only place I've got any hands on experience with the system. I have not seen the one on Bragg. Give me a week or so, and I'll try to run down some info my last week here.

V/R
SSG B

[jwt5]

Originally Posted by frostfire

RTK, jbour13, jwt5,

do you know the maintenance schedule of your EST system(s)? How often do you have to reallign the laser or send the weapons back to the vendor for service?

The A2 simulators here have been having tons of problem from the last 10 months usage; misaligned laser, failure to fire/no recoil, and jammed trigger (won't go to safe even after cocked, but it will go to 3-burst. So the system always recognize the chamber as empty). The M4, OTOH, has been problem-free despite some leaky noise.

These simulators feel pretty tough-built, but anything with laser and pneumatic mechanical parts are bound to be problematic from time to time. However, if the students were really abusing them, I'm gonna make them handle real live baby before class and tell them to treat the simulator the same way.

IIRC, the 'vendor' for the system had a shop on Ft. Stewart. I remember being a PFC and being volunteered to drive some of the M2 simulators to the shop for the contractors (before they got some of those old green pickups). So chances are they were able to repair their stuff anytime they needed to.

As far as beating the simulators to hell, we didn't have that problem, our EST systems were run not only by retired military folk, but they also had a Major and SGM in charge of them, IIRC, so they were always yelling if we slapped the magazine in or dropped the weapon, or anything like that.