Man with CCW permit kills robbery suspect

[Sdiver]

This story should give some of us, if not most, a nice BIG, Warm, Fuzzy, feeling inside.

Man with concealed-carry permit kills robbery suspect in Cleveland


Associated Press
CLEVELAND—A man who has a permit to carry a concealed gun shot and killed one of two teenage robbery suspects he encountered on his front porch, police said.
City prosecutors decided yesterday that the 25-year-old Cleveland man was justified and would not be charged in the shooting Saturday night of 15-year-old Arthur Buford, a freshman at John F. Kennedy High School.

Buford and another teen approached the man on his porch and one of the youths pulled a gun, prompting the resident to pull his gun and shoot Buford several times in the chest, police said.

Police took a .40-caliber Smith and Wesson from the man as evidence, according to a police report.

Toby Hoover, director of the Toledo-based Ohio Coalition Against Gun Violence, said she had not heard of any other fatal shooting involving someone who has a permit to carry a concealed gun under the state's 3-year-old law.

About 30 youths gathered Monday at the intersection where Buford died and set up a memorial. His cousin, Tameka Foster, 21, questioned the decision against prosecuting the shooter.

"They let that man run out freely," Foster said. "My cousin is dead."

Buford's alleged accomplice fled after and shooting and has not been caught. Police believe a .38-caliber handgun they found in the mail chute of a nearby house belonged to Buford or the other suspect, Lt. Thomas Stacho said.

[The Reaper]

It would appear that the community most affected by violent crime cares the least about stopping it.

TR

Why Is Pizza Shop Owner That Shot Armed Robber Having to Defend Himself?
Monday , April 23, 2007

By John Gibson

A story in the San Francisco Chronicle today describes a shooting in East Oakland in which a beloved young rapper was gunned down in the prime of life.

The rapper's nickname was Boonie, and not far from where he was shot dead a memorial has sprung up with flowers and hand-printed messages from his many friends in the neighborhood. "The world's gonna miss u," read one message.

It is all so sad. Police and members of the community call the shooting tragic. The cop investigating the shooting said the families are devastated. "There are no winners in this situation," he said, quoted in the San Francisco Chronicle.

Just another gang shooting, right? Another family burying one of their young adult sons, brothers, cousins.

Well, kind of. Actually Boonie was more than just another rapper. He was also a domestic abuser, a firearm brandisher, a convicted drug dealer, and on the day he died, an armed robber.

He and his swaggering crew of "rappers" came into a family owned pizza joint, Boonie stuck a 9mm in the face of the frightened owner and said this is a robbery. The owner's family was in the restaurant and he didn't know where this was going. He pulled a gun from beneath the counter and shot our young rapper hero dead.

The pizza owner might have had a parade down Market Street in San Francisco. Instead, he's scared. He won't even say he's glad he defended his family, and the cops are saying things like this from Officer Roland Holmgren, who said, "Who knows where the suspects were going to take the situation? But by no stretch of the imagination are we agreeing with or justifying what the owner did."

The owner defended himself and his family against a gun-wielding thug. The thug was shot dead. This is the way things should work.

Instead we have an Oakland cop actually saying he wants the citizens he is supposed to protect let themselves be victimized rather than defend themselves. Holmgren said: "We're not saying that we want citizens to go out there and arm themselves and take the law into their own hands. We want citizens to be good witnesses, to be good report-takers and to identify suspects."

Officer Holmgren, our rapper guy came to the pizza shop with a gun, which he pointed at the owner's head. I have one question for you: Do dead victims make good witnesses and good report-takers and good identifiers of suspects?

You need more people like the pizza shop owner in Oakland. Maybe the so-called rappers who moonlight as armed robbers will wake up one morning and read a newspaper and they'll figure it out.

That's My Word.

Watch John Gibson weekdays at 5 p.m. ET on "The Big Story" and send your comments to: myword@foxnews.com

[Pete]

Yes, young lady, your cousin is dead because he was a petty thief who tried to rob the wrong man.

My idea of Gun Contol - hitting your target.

I wonder if she would have turned her cousin in when she found out he had robbed some dude on a porch - NOT.

Pete

[GreenSalsa]

too bad the Pizza owner didn't attend Virgina Tech...

The problem with the public is they don't see / read often enough how guns SAVE lives. on another note Officer Roland Holmgren needs to be fired.

[sg1987]

Instead we have an Oakland cop actually saying he wants the citizens he is supposed to protect let themselves be victimized rather than defend themselves. Holmgren said: "We're not saying that we want citizens to go out there and arm themselves and take the law into their own hands. We want citizens to be good witnesses, to be good report-takers and to identify suspects."

This is exactly what they are teaching our kids in government schools today. Never, ever fight back when assaulted by fellow students. Flee every time and let the staff handle it - they don’t; so the perpetrators continue and the victims continue to be victimized. (Sheep breeding)

[kgoerz]

About 30 youths gathered Monday at the intersection where Buford died and set up a memorial. His cousin, Tameka Foster, 21, questioned the decision against prosecuting the shooter.

This is why these minorities will never stop the cycle of poverty and violence. Putting a common criminal like this on a pedestal.

Buford and another teen approached the man on his porch and one of the youths pulled a gun, prompting the resident to pull his gun and shoot Buford several times in the chest, police said.

This isn't even about CCW, he was practically in his house.

"They let that man run out freely," Foster said. "My cousin is dead

No he is not free. Because of your dead Cousin he will have to live with the memory of killing someone the rest of his life, fear for his life and probably move away. His life will never be the same again.

Officer Roland Holmgren, who said, "Who knows where the suspects were going to take the situation? But by no stretch of the imagination are we agreeing with or justifying what the owner did."

And you wonder why calling 911 is not our first thought when threatened.

[Beach Bum]

About a year and a half ago a known drug dealer was killed, unfortunatley I do not recall how he died. The local news paper ran a story about him- each starting on the front page, every day for about 5 days. They happened to mention, once, that he had a criminal record but focused more on how he bought shoes and toys for the neighborhood children (IMO probably his kids anyway!) and how he was such a good brother and cousin and will be missed so much. There was more attention given to this piece of trash then what was given to the Pope when he passed away. This is just the type of thing that feeds into their victim mentality. Perhaps Tameka and Mr. Holmgren should get their heads out of their butts and get a clue!

[AF IDMT]

Originally Posted by The Reaper

"Who knows where the suspects were going to take the situation? But by no stretch of the imagination are we agreeing with or justifying what the owner did."

Are you kidding me!?!?!? Granted my crystal ball is broken, but I think I can hazard a guess as to where he was "going to take the situation."

Originally Posted by The Reaper

The owner defended himself and his family against a gun-wielding thug. The thug was shot dead. This is the way things should work.

Instead we have an Oakland cop actually saying he wants the citizens he is supposed to protect let themselves be victimized rather than defend themselves. Holmgren said: "We're not saying that we want citizens to go out there and arm themselves and take the law into their own hands. We want citizens to be good witnesses, to be good report-takers and to identify suspects."

This is why I hope I never get stationed in California.

[Goggles Pizano]

Hmmmm... could you explain how your helping to fight crime in your community officer Holmgren while chewing upon your shoe? Asshat.

[Maytime]

Unless officer Holmgren has a quantum mechanical device that allows him to be everywhere in his AO at the same time to protect innocents, he should be grateful that there are proactive Americans exercising the law of the land to save lives, just as he enforces the law of the land to save lives.

I remember the section in MSG Howe's book about people these days being brainwashed and conditioned to not fight back and just take it, and this is clearly a sign of the times.

$0.02

[LongWire]

Originally Posted by The Reaper

Instead we have an Oakland cop actually saying he wants the citizens he is supposed to protect let themselves be victimized rather than defend themselves. Holmgren said: "We're not saying that we want citizens to go out there and arm themselves and take the law into their own hands. We want citizens to be good witnesses, to be good report-takers and to identify suspects."

In the Officers defense, I am sure that this is what they are required to say. In today's PC world, you cant exactly expect him to come out and say the Victim did the right thing, beside I'm sure he has some CI's in the crowd who may read the paper.

But this is exactly what that type of element feed off of. They are expecting us to cower and try to be witnesses, and come back to offer more threats if we try to help and prosecution efforts, because the cops are the few, and they are the many.

[incommin]

When I was in high school I remember being told that our system was great because it was based on the belief that it was better for ten guilty men to go free than on innocent man go to jail. I also remember being told that property was not as valuable as a human life so thieves and robbers should not be killed by someone protecting property.

After 15 years in law enforcement I no longer believe that. Seven to eight percent of a population commit 70 to 75 percent of the crimes in that area. Two to three percent of a population are psychopaths.

Any citizen who defends himself, family, or property is a hero in my book.....

I think the sheep do not like to be reminded that they are sheep and depend on others for their safety........


Jim

[dr. mabuse]

And we teach our students to do what you need to do, yet it may cost everything you have to defend yourself.

We have done tens of thousands of CHL's and only a few have been involved in shootings, yet the financial cost was high for some of them, and this is in gun-toting Texas.

One student (a senior citizen on crutches no less) was knocked down by a flying tackle from a robber wielding a straight-edged razor. He ended up shooting the dirtbag after several attempts to de-escalate. IIRC, it cost him over $40,000 to prove he did nothing wrong.

What is this country coming to?

[TENGU]

It is sad that this PC Gone Wild society is making sheep out of our younger generation. What do you call a people that delegate to strangers, (e.g LEOS),
the task to defend yourself, property and loved ones?
Kudos to the Pizza parlor owner!!! He did the right thing.
A gun on hand is always better than a Cop on the phone!
Good thing the Thug did not survive, otherwise the lawsuits that would come
by the ACLU with the Lawyers from NYU would drive the victim out of business.

I'm with Pete 100%. Gun Control to me is to consistently hit your target with a hand-gun at 25 meters!


Sine-Pari

[The Reaper]

Not in any way sugesting that these acts were not justifiable, or that the world is not better off with these scumbags gone, but we need a quick dose of today's reality check before we go too far.

We have commented on it before here, but I feel that it merits repeating.

A lot of people seem to be looking for the opportunity to blast away at someone. That time has passed, in case you missed it, we no longer live in frontier days.

I will tell you that in my observation, even if you are in a location that respects an individual's right to protect himself and you are fully justified, you will likely still be in for a ton of civil exposure.

Every word and action will be examined in detail that makes NFL post-game analysis seem casual. Hours will be spent on expert debate of how you acted in a very few seconds, and why. People who know far more about homicide than us will look to prove your criminal intent, or at least negligence.

All it takes is an unscrupulous DA or prosecutor (see Duke LAX case), or a bad judge, and you can go to prison for a completely justifiable act.

The old saw about shooting someone outside your house and dragging the body in will quickly be seen as evidence of guilt, and will be detectable to anyone with rudimentary forensic experience.

At the very least, you will need a defense attorney before you make a statement to police, and for any hearings after that. Competent legal representation costs are in the hundreds of dollars per hour. You can go cheap, or public defender, at the risk of your freedom. What do you think the representation in the Duke rape case cost?

After you are released from all criminal liability (or maybe before), you will be besieged by the legal representatives of the estranged family members of the afore mentioned scumbag, who, while missing for most of his formative years, will now appear in front of the media and announce the goodness, intelligence, humanitarianism, artistic nature, and complete innocence, etc. of the armed and deceased felon, complete with a ten year-old photo of him as an elementary school honor student. For no money down, and a minor 15-50% of any judgement, these members of the Bar will force you to retain an equally or more talented and expensive civil attorney who will spend many hours protecting you from their attorneys, at the hourly rate of hundreds of your dollars, which a goodly portion will be required up front. The more assets you have to protect, the better (more expensive) attorney you need. Should you be fortunate enough, your insurance policy may cover a portion of this, or offer a settlement in lieu of trial. More likely, you will be seen as having operated outside the terms of your coverage, and will have to pay these fees yourself. By the time the case gets to court, the scumbag will be a choirboy and you will be a vicious/negligent killer, looking for trouble. If you are lucky, and your case/representation is better than theirs, you will be cleared of any civil judgement and will only have to pay thousands of dollars in unrecoverable attorney's fees. Should you be found liable, you may spend the rest of your life working to pay back the "family" and lawyers of the felon you justifiably killed.

Maybe the Oakland cop was trying to explain this and he did a poor job of it.

I am in no way encouraging people to act as sheep, or to fail to protect themselves, I am merely pointing out that even if you are completely justified, killing another human being has serious consequences.

Do not carry a weapon if you are not willing to use it.

Do not carry a weapon unless you know how to use it properly.

Understand your state and local laws on the use of deadly force.

You should probably have the phone numbers of at least a couple of criminal defense attorneys handy, just in case.

Do not draw your weapon unless you are prepared to justifiably employ lethal force.

Do not point your weapon at someone in an effort to intimidate them.

Do not shoot to wound in a lethal force engagement.

Make every attempt to avoid the use of lethal force, knowing the consequences.

If shooting must be done, better that the cops should shoot than you, they know the rules and have city attorneys and the union to help them.

If you have to shoot to defend your life, shoot as accurately as possible and fire only enough rounds to neutralize the threat. Remember what the cops say, every bullet fired has an attorney attached to it.

Be certain that every threat present has been neutralized. Scan everyone present for additional threats. Maintain your SA till LE arrives, and afterwards. Remember that the thug may have friends/family present or en route who may or may not be armed.

If you have not called 911, do so ASAP and state that there has been a shooting. Remember that the recorder is on and say nothing that might prejudice your case later. If you have them on the line prior to the shooting, remember that you will hear your words again. Asking the thug to drop his weapon, stating that you are in fear for your life, please stop, leave etc. will be viewed as good things. Threats, profanity, aggressive statements, etc. will not. Best not to answer questions like, "Who shot him", "Why did you do it", etc. I would think that putting the phone down after telling 911 the address, your description, and that there has been a shooting may be a good idea. Request medical assistance and LE response. Then wait.

Do not attempt to alter evidence at the scene, or allow others to. Ensure that no one removes the criminal's weapon either. You may wish to provide medical care to the person you shot. It will normally be seen as a positive gesture. Keep your mouth shut regardless.

When LE arrives, if you are still holding the weapon, put it down immediately, act in a non-threatening manner, and comply with all instructions by the officers. Keep your mouth shut, you may be traumatized. Be prepared to be cuffed and transported. If you are injured request medical treatment.

DO NOT MAKE ANY STATEMENT BEFORE YOU HAVE AN ATTORNEY PRESENT.

DO NOT WAIVE ANY RIGHTS.

Remember that LE is allowed to lie to you during questioning. If pressured to make a statement, tell them that you are too shaken to talk right now, and will give them one as soon as you recover. Get a lawyer first and let him do his job. Lawyering up may (or may not) be seen as an indication of guilt, but is not evidence of anything. Review what you are going to say in your statement with your attorney before making it. Do not answer any questions without him present.

Do not speak to the media. Let your lawyer do that.

Pray that you have reasonable cops, DAs, judges, and juries. In some areas, you are going to be guilty from the beginning. In that case, you should probably move. There are several citizens serving sentences right now for justifiable shootings. The minimum sentence rules cut both ways. If you have not been to a trial in your community recently, do not try to duck out of jury duty next time, go. I guarantee you that what you see will be a real eye opener.

If it is you or them, always better them, but make sure you understand the implications of your actions and have exhausted lesser ones. Nothing wrong with keeping a less than lethal response, like a can of OC or a stun gun handy, in case a lethal response is not justified.

Yes, it is a shame when defending yourself against someone who assaults you with a deadly weapon can cost you your freedom or your personal assets. Unfortunately, it is reality. I am not trying to discourage anyone from choosing to carry, or to employ deadly force to defend themselves. Understand that there are serious consequences before you strap that weapon on, start to draw it, or take up the slack in that trigger. Your life is about to change. Understand it, and make the right decisions.

This is just my .02, based on my observations, and is not intended to represent competent legal advice. Seek a local attorney for specific legal recommendations.

Good luck, especially to the citizens who shot the deserving thugs.

TR