illegal immigration

[dennisw]

I know there has been a fair amount of discussion related to the issue of illegal immigration and illegal immigrants. However, after being out and about in Southern California recently and rubbing elbows with folks who appear to be illegal immigrants, it’s appears the problem has reached epidemic proportions.

Now I know that all the folks I interact with are not illegal. However, common sense tells me that a certain percentage of them are illegal and that percentage is so high that it’s a problem. But what is the real problem? Is it illegal immigration or is it the perception that the rights under the law of citizens are just slightly higher then those who are illegal? I believe one of the biggest problems is that we see illegals and resident aliens having virtually the same rights as citizens.

It’s a practical situation also. If there are punitive measures for illegal aliens under the law that are not enforced, does it really matter if the punitive measures exist? If they are not practically applied then they do not exist of all intensive purposes and again there is the question of the degree of disparity between citizens and non citizens under the law.

Therefore, I believe there should be a general reorganization of the laws related to citizenship. The benefits accruing to citizens should leave no doubt as to the favorable status of being a citizen.

In the New Testament, the Apostle Paul is being roughed up by a Roman Centurion. When the Centurion learns Paul is in fact a citizen, the Hebrew says he turns white as he relizes the penalty for roughing up or torturing a citizen is death. I guess this is along the lines of what I’m thinking. Due process for citizens should be different.

The rate of income taxes should be substantially different for citizens. So substantial that resident and illegal aliens should be very motivated to become citizens.

I'm mean who fight the wars? Who protects our way of life? Should there not be some superb benefit associated with the related responsibilities? Does any of this make sense?

[Roguish Lawyer]

What exactly is the problem?

[Jack Moroney (RIP)]

Originally Posted by dennisw

Due process for citizens should be different.

Does any of this make sense?

Guess I'm not really sure what you are trying to say, however "law of the land is the law of the land" and in my simple way of looking at things if you are on the land you obey the law regardless of your "status". It also seems to me that some resident aliens seem to have greater respect for this "land" than do many of the "favored" citizens. You ask who fights the wars, check the ranks of the military, you might be surprised how many resident aliens fill the ranks and how many of the "favored" citizens shun any sense of responsibility or duty to their "land". As far as illegals, illegal is illegal is illegal. We have too many "favored" citizens that choose not to enforce the "law of the land" that enables illegals to stay here but many of those that are here seem to be contributing to the well being of "favored" citizens by performing services that benefit the "favored" citizens and for which, with the exception of those that are being put out of work by this influx, don't seem to mind. The arguments about this are many and heated. As far as your observation, what makes you so sure that if any new "laws of the land" enacted that will benefit the "favored' citizens will be enforced any more vigorously than those currently on the books that are not?

[Team Sergeant]

Originally Posted by dennisw

it’s appears the problem has reached epidemic proportions.

What part of the 10-20 MILLION illegal alien estimates reported in the last few years didn't you understand?

I live in Arizona, every other vehicle on the road is sporting a mexican flag, "immigration" I don't think so.

TS

[The Reaper]

I think the operative word here is "ILLEGAL".

Arrest and immediate deportation for first offenders is probably the best we can hope for.

Frankly, I could support lopping off a hand instead, but I know that we do not have the huevos to do that. Complete militarization of the border with mines and troops to go with the fence would be another solution. Mexico does nothing because it is a pressure release valve for the unemployed and dampens social unrest to have that many citizens living elsewhere and sending money home. There is also significant corruption in the Mexican government, LE, and military that supports drug smuggling and other illegal activities across the border that are detrimental to our society.

I know of no other industrialized country that allows the flagrant border violations and invasion that we do.

Immigrants should be allowed to apply for a visa, approved only if their skills are needed, and tracked while here to make sure that they obey the laws and go home when their permits expire. Those who prove themselves to be trustworthy and useful should be allowed to apply for permanent residency.

Eventually, the terrorists are going to use the porosity of the border to mount an operation against us, and everyone will be asking why we didn't do more to stop it.

We lack the intestinal fortitude as a nation today to do what is right, and just.

TR

[echoes]

Originally Posted by Team Sergeant

What part of the 10-20 MILLION illegal alien estimates reported in the last few years didn't you understand?

I live in Arizona, every other vehicle on the road is sporting a mexican flag, "immigration" I don't think so.

TS

Sir, I concur FWIW.

Here is something interesting: I was told by my college mentor NOT to take my desired language, German. He told me that in the future, Spanish will help me live in our Country easier. This coming from a staunch right-wing, non-pc, individual.

Holly
p.s......am going to take German anyway.

[Pete]

Originally Posted by Team Sergeant

.....I live in Arizona......TS

I could say something cute about AZ being one of the central states of Altzan but things have gone rapidly past saying cute things on that subject.

Replacing a culture used to be done out in the open in the old days. Come in buring, killing, destroying, set up your own culture and live content.

Now days it's immigration. Funny how many cultures think their country is a rat hole so they come here. They then start trying to replace our culture with their's.


I can only shake my head.

[kgoerz]

Replacing a culture used to be done out in the open in the old days. Come in buring, killing, destroying, set up your own culture and live content.

When the people who's land you are invading roll over and look the other way. No need to burn and destroy.

Eventually, the terrorists are going to use the porosity of the border to mount an operation against us, and everyone will be asking why we didn't do more to stop it.

Probably already crossed over. Especially with all the publicity about how easy it is. It will be interesting to see how the Government spins the story. Or who they blame for doing nothing to stop the enemy from crossing the border with Mexico.

[smp52]

Originally Posted by The Reaper

Eventually, the terrorists are going to use the porosity of the border to mount an operation against us, and everyone will be asking why we didn't do more to stop it.

Unfortunately I believe this is the only scenario where politicians will find it politically 'feasible' to do the right thing because they have the public support. Going out on a limb and staking a preventative position is far more risky to their grasp on power than being reactive, screaming bloody murder, and make a dog and pony show of how they'll correct the problem when encountered.

Addressing the root cause of an issue and taking action on it is far more work than letting the problem fester and once it boils over, letting everyone else do the work for you while one appears to be contributing (in reality merely riding the bandwagon).

[dennisw]

What exactly is the problem?

Interesting question, and I’m assuming it’s a legitimate one and not just an attempt to stir the pot.

To begin with, the exact problem is simply illegal immigration and it's associated costs and ills. The adverse effects of this problem are many and varied and ultimately encompass more then just the economic considerations. To a certain extent we can quantify the economic costs; others are more esoteric but probably more costly and damaging in the long run. The first is illustrated by the following quote from the weblink below:

Illegal immigration costs the taxpayers of California — which has the highest number of illegal aliens nationwide — $10.5 billion a year for education, health care and incarceration, according to a study released yesterday.


http://www.washingtontimes.com/natio...2115-6766r.htm

This $10.5 billion represents hard costs or those which can be directly identified. However, it does not include the soft costs, such as the cost of the crimes which were committed by the illegal aliens.

The incarceration costs did not include judicial expenditures or the monetary costs of the crimes committed by illegal aliens that led to their incarceration.

Without going into expansive elaboration, the first problem is simply the cost of illegal immigration.

In assessing the above cost, we must also weigh the "opportunity cost"; meaning what could we have done with this money if it wasn't spent on illegal immigration? I think most of us can come up with a few good ways to spend $10 billion on an annual basis.

Secondly, I personally believe that illegally immigration has a greater cost which is the negative impact on our culture and values. I believe these values are the unique characteristic that defines us as Americans and the erosion of them can and will have a negative impact on our morale, our cohesion and our ability to maintain our preeminent position as a global power. To a large extent, the very things which make us unique as Americans will simply disappear.

[dennisw]

What part of the 10-20 MILLION illegal alien estimates reported in the last few years didn't you understand?

Understanding the sweet science of a right cross is one thing. Getting hit by one in the nose by one really communicates. I guess it the cumulative effect of illegal immigration just hit me the other day when I found myself wondering why I live where I live.

When I found myself researching New Zealand, then I began to worry.

[Roguish Lawyer]

Interesting how no one pays any attention to the benefits of illegal immigration. I am not going to rehash what already has been debated ad nauseum in other threads, but the problem is not immigration or illegal immigration, but rather the existence (and extent) of misguided public benefit programs and the lack of adequate border security (against security threats, not migrant workers).

No offense to anyone here, but I believe that this is a false issue driven almost entirely by xenophobia. The vast majority of illegal immigrants are hard-working, good people who we need to do work that most Americans are too lazy (or at least unwilling) to do. To the extent they are not paying taxes, it is because the system deters them from integrating into society. Our country gets softer every day, and I'm tired of people blaming their own personal failures and frustrations on immigrants.

The legal vs. illegal distinction is a red herring -- it is just about impossible to immigrate here legally from Mexico, for example. So maybe we should just tear down the Statue of Liberty since so many people don't seem to believe in what it stands for.

BTW, I know I am speaking for many others who have PM'd me on this topic but who are afraid to offend anyone here by calling a spade a spade. Everyone is entitled to their opinion, and I know there are people against illegal immigration who are not xenophobes, but frankly I think those people are the exception, not the rule.

So apologies to anyone offended by what I've said here, but that's what I really think.

[Team Sergeant]

Originally Posted by Roguish Lawyer

Interesting how no one pays any attention to the benefits of illegal immigration. I am not going to rehash what already has been debated ad nauseum in other threads, but the problem is not immigration or illegal immigration, but rather the existence (and extent) of misguided public benefit programs and the lack of adequate border security (against security threats, not migrant workers).

No offense to anyone here, but I believe that this is a false issue driven almost entirely by xenophobia. The vast majority of illegal immigrants are hard-working, good people who we need to do work that most Americans are too lazy (or at least unwilling) to do. To the extent they are not paying taxes, it is because the system deters them from integrating into society. Our country gets softer every day, and I'm tired of people blaming their own personal failures and frustrations on immigrants.

The legal vs. illegal distinction is a red herring -- it is just about impossible to immigrate here legally from Mexico, for example. So maybe we should just tear down the Statue of Liberty since none of you believe in what it stands for.

BTW, I know I am speaking for many others who have PM'd me on this topic but who are afraid to offend anyone here by calling a spade a spade. Everyone is entitled to their opinion, and I know there are people against illegal immigration who are not xenophobes, but frankly I think those people are the exception, not the rule.

So apologies to anyone offended by what I've said here, but that's what I really think.

How many illegals live on your block or work within a mile of your home? What do you know about the crime stats or the drug stats as related to illegals? I'm guessing not much....

xenophobia is not a word Special Forces soldiers use.

What I do know is that in any successful revolution you've got to kill all the lawyers.......

[Roguish Lawyer]

Originally Posted by Team Sergeant

How many illegals live on your block or work within a mile of your home?

Hard to count, but I am sure at least hundreds, if not thousands. I live in Southern California -- illegal immigrants are everywhere.

Originally Posted by Team Sergeant

What do you know about the crime stats or the drug stats as related to illegals? I'm guessing not much....

You guess incorrectly. My view is that crime and drugs are separate issues. I have good solutions for them too.

[The Reaper]

I do not think that we need 15-20 million people here illegally who do not want to be Americans. My family has been here since the early 1700s, and they were all legal immigrants, except for my Grandmother, who was a Cherokee.

This started with a few Mexicans coming here illegally, and now has spread throught Central America as well, with groups of illegals now coming from as far south as Panama.

A temporary guest worker program would be acceptable to me, if we enforced the laws against those here illegally in violation of that program as well as the companies who employ them, denied all social services to illegals, amended Section 1 of the 14th Amendment to eliminate anchor babies, made the penalties more severe for committing a crime while being here illegally, and sealed the border as best we can.

Call me a xenophobe, but I suspect that I have spent far more of my life living and working with foreign people than the average American. As a teenager, I worked alongside migrants in tobacco fields. I do not think that after my service and sacrifice for this country my opinion should be invalidated or categorized by someone calling me a name.

And that is what I really think.

TR