"outing" supposed Military Posers

[Michelle]

**this is potentially a very controvesial subject - as such, I requested and received permission to post on the subject, prior to doing so**

I am curious as to what the consensus is here regarding the various websites out there that "out" military posers.

Conceptually I think it is a fantastic idea. There are several web sites out there that have taken it upon themselves to "expose" individuals who make untrue claims about their service. But with the good intentions, sometimes comes bad execution. I was wondering what other's thoughts on this might be.

To me, something as serious as publically labeling someone a "poser", should be treated with the utmost gravity and due diligence in research and vetting of information prior to making the assertion.

I've recently found out about a site or two who cavalierly make these accusations without first investigating, vetting, or proving claims made anonymously by third parties.

This sets up a standard for unfair persecution. Basically, on some of these sites, any bitter ex-wife, angry family member, or unethical business competitor of a former military member, can "report" a "poser" to these sites, and the accusations get published, no questions asked.

I would like to know what other peoples thoughts are on this? Should there be a specified protocol on how these things are handled? Should people who claim they are "investigators" of such matters have to have some sort of certification, or at least the blessing of, factions like the DVA?

There are two very strong tennants in the world of law and litigation... (1) Innocent until proven guilty; (2) Burden of proof falls on the accuser.

Is it a good idea to let rogue websites work outside these parameters?

It seems to me that a whole lot more good could be done, absent harm, if these sites had a foundational regulation or protocol attached to them.

Thoughts?

m1 - Hornet Nest Poker

[82ndtrooper]

It's not often that a suspected "Poser" is actually verified to be otherwise. In other words, if an online user is claiming SOF experience he is generally called out fairly quickly due to lack of information, tone of his posts, and or both. SOCNET seems to have more "SEAL Check" threads than actual shop talk or NSW/SEAL discussion. Someone alway's seem to have a bug up his or her ass as to someones actual creds when presented with claims of SOF experience. I suppose some claims have been verified, but not before that person has experienced ridicule and put into a place of defending his claims. On the other hand it seems "QP's" are not all that ready to announce their experience and their creds. There's no chest beating when a "QP" joins a board forum, the tone of his posts and the information provided speaks for it's self.

I'm not attempting to answer for the true SOF operators, but I have seen my share of wannabee's on other forums, namely those that are concerned with firearms, tactics, military discussions, etc. I've actually seen a new member of another forum claim MARSOC Det 1 and spelled Marine Corps as "Marine Core" in his profile. How many Marines would actually make that mistake and not have enough SA to fix it quickly before someone notices ? This same member described how he deployed down range with an H&K USP chambered in .40 S&W with a tan frame.

I believe the real crime in false claims of service are those in which the individual has used those claims for promotion and recognition. I believe one law enforcement officer actually claimed service with the SEAL Teams and that he was decorated for wartime status. His DD-214 later surfuced and those claims were quickly put to rest, along with his career. (I'll have to find this and post it if necessary)

There are some humorous threads over at SOCNET for wannabee posers. Some are actually scary. People with uniforms, badges that do not belong on the uniform, rank with too many or few hash marks, etc. Isn't Jessy Ventura's claims still up for grabs as a real deal Navy SEAL ?

[Kyobanim]

Isn't Jessy Ventura's claims still up for grabs as a real deal Navy SEAL ?

He was UDT.

[Hipshot]

We had a guy at work who claimed to be a VN-era Seal and had won the Navy Cross, multiple PH's and other awards. The other guys I worked with said he told some terrific stories until I showed up in the area. I have a black Polo shirt with the SF crest on the front with the words 'Special Forces' that I sometimes wear to work and another with 'Vietnam Veteran'. When he saw those two shirts, the stories dried up.

He would "disappear" from work for a few days, then show up and say that he was in "Indian Country" on a Black Ops mission for our company. Of course the company disavowed any knowledge of having any of our personnel deployed on such ops.

The scary part was the guy had a TS clearance with modifiers and wound up being walked out the door. Don't know if they pulled his clearances or not - I hope so.

[Razor]

Michelle, my opinion is that like everything else on the Internet, some "poser buster" sites are solid, while others are pretty hinky. The web is a "reader beware" environment, and if a person or group relies on a website with questionable credibility for this type of information, then they themselves are, in my mind, remarkably lazy and mentally simple.

[Monsoon65]

Michelle:

Posers really get on my nerves. Especially the ones that are lying to get something, like benefits from the VA or recognition that they don't deserve. Having these guys crucified is too good a punishment.

I accidently outted a guy to his wife once. She said her son was named after her husbands spotter, who was killed in Desert Storm while they were in the 82nd Airborne. I said something like, "I didn't think they lost spotters, snipers, or the like," then quickly shut my mouth when she got "the look". Next thing I know, she told me she told him to duff up a 214 saying he was a sniper!

[Warrior-Mentor]

Originally Posted by Michelle

**this is potentially a very controvesial subject - as such, I requested and received permission to post on the subject, prior to doing so**

I am curious as to what the consensus is here regarding the various websites out there that "out" military posers.

I've recently found out about a site or two who cavalierly make these accusations without first investigating, vetting, or proving claims made anonymously by third parties.

There are two very strong tennants in the world of law and litigation... (1) Innocent until proven guilty; (2) Burden of proof falls on the accuser.

Is it a good idea to let rogue websites work outside these parameters?

m1 - Hornet Nest Poker

Should posers get roasted? Sure. But, by whom? And what is their motivation & credibility?

Any site is only as credible as their members. Unfortunatey, there's no "web credibility police."

Accusation without proof = slander or libel depending if it's verbal or in print (web).

[Michelle]

Originally Posted by Warrior-Mentor

Accusation without proof = slander or libel depending if it's verbal or in print (web).

Exactly. Sad thing is, some of these sites don't notify people that have been "added" to their database and publically posted on the site.

This fosters a situation where unless they are lucky enough to hear about it from a third party:

(a) The accused doesn't even know, so they have no opportunity to defend themselves or clarify the record; and (b) They don't know they are listed so they are robbed of the recourse of pursuing a libel action.

Razor, you make a good point but my concern is not for the reader who may be gullible, but rather the victim(s) out there being falsely accused. And I know the ratio of unfairly accused is incredibly low in the scheme of things, but even one false positive is one too many (in my mind) when you are talking about a persons honor and reputation. Especially if it can be avoided by doing some homework instead of relying on hearsay of anonymous third parties.

I guess I don't understand why none of this is regulated. It flies in the face of what we as a country and judicial system stand for on issues of due process and not allowing unfair persecution.

Maybe I'm too idealistic.

m1

[Gypsy]

As a recruiter I've run across some obvious posers in my time.

The worst was a guy I interviewed for a job, he claimed he was Task Force Ranger in the Mog. Matter of fact, he said he was the medic portrayed in the movie who tried to save Cpl. Jamie Smith (RIP) He literally asked me if I had seen/read BHD, when I said of course he said that was him.

Soooo, I'm all over myself....honored to meet such a heroic man. Through some friends who WERE there I found out the truth...and took great pleasure telling this candidate precisely what I though of him in very thorough detail.

They're everywhere.

[BrianH]

Originally Posted by Warrior-Mentor

Should posers get roasted? Sure. But, by whom? And what is their motivation & credibility?

"Motivation" and "credibility" are two ideals that seem to not matter to a few of the sites (and their posters) who have taken it upon themselves to "out" supposed posers.

[kgoerz]

When you talk about web sites designed for outing posers. Are talking about forums like SOCNET, Lightfighter....etc. Or are there web sites just for the purpose of exposing posers?

It's not often that a suspected "Poser" is actually verified to be otherwise. In other words, if an online user is claiming SOF experience he is generally called out fairly quickly due to lack of information

Most forums like lightfighter give posers plenty of rope to hang themselves before going on the attack. I have no sympathy for them. If you live near a Military base like I do (FT. Bragg) you rarely if ever meet a poser. The amount of people posing away from our world is amazing to me. I helped two of my brothers out posers at their work place. One in N.Y and the other in F.L.
What really is disturbing is how easily people fall for it. My two brothers never even suspected these two guys of lying. It just came up in conversation. "Keith theres a guy at my work who was SF, you know him"
One had pictures and posters in his office. Just a photo from his Army service dressed in conventional gear standing in front of a tank. Everyone believed it was a picture from his SF time. Gave my brothers a couple of basic questions to ask and return to me the responses. Didn't know what Q-Course or ODA meant. Didn't have an answer to what Group....etc.
I can understand some young kids being misguided. But for a grown man in his thirties, it's pathetic and sad. I am glade we have the poser police looking out for us. I would like to see an example of someone being falsely accused. It's pretty simple to tell the real from the fake.

[BrianH]

Originally Posted by kgoerz

I can understand some young kids being misguided. But for a grown man in his thirties, it's pathetic and sad. I am glade we have the poser police looking out for us. I would like to see an example of someone being falsely accused. It's pretty simple to tell the real from the fake.

I've seen it happen a lot with bar bouncers in non-military towns. It's rare to hear one claim SF, but you hear SEAL quite a bit. I know enough to know approximately what BUD/s classes happened when, and it never fails that these guys will rattle off a four or five digit class number, or a class number pre-dating their time in service by twenty years.

Sigh.

[Michelle]

Originally Posted by BrianH

"Motivation" and "credibility" are two ideals that seem to not matter to a few of the sites (and their posters) who have taken it upon themselves to "out" supposed posers.

Thank you Brian....That is the precise issue of my post.

I'm not questioning that there are posers out there and that they should be exposed. The topic of my post was how the process and responsibility is abused or handled so incredibly poorly by some, to the point of the site owners being just as reprehensible as those they are seeking to "call to justice".

It's that whole Nietzsche thing.... the monsters and the abyss.....

ETA: No, I am not talking about SOCNET or Lightfighter... I am talking about sites run by non-military folk who think they have the right to meddle in things that are way beyond their scope, area of expertise, or business.

m1

[SouthernDZ]

Michelle - from time to time I have to attend functions at my wife's work; hate it, but love my wife. When asked if I was ever in the military I usually respond with "yep, just a grunt." and change the subject. Not because I'm ashamed of my service, not because they couldn't relate and not because I'm feeling "clandestine" right now. I say that because "I was an Airborne Ranger-Special Forces NCO" would immediately brand me as another lying sack of shit poser they've had the misfortune to meet - no thanks.

I understand your point, it's valid and well taken; however, try to understand ours. I guarantee the QPs here have all been faced with this scenario I've described.

I believe in due process, but I also feel beholden to some who have taken the time to expose these lying bastards for what they are. Like you, I want them to be firm, be diligent and be right before they wrongly accuse someone. But like someone else on this thread has already alluded to, I can spend 30 seconds with someone and tell you if they're genuine or a poser.

[blue02hd]

Approximately 2 and a half years ago when I was killing time in the OCS course in Benning, I had the chance to oust a poser from the Army. He lived across the hall in the same platoon I was assigned. Like most QP's I didn't advertise my background, and made it a good 4 weeks into the course before my SGL decided to share the info with other cadre and candidates. By this time I had heard 4 weeks of 18D 10th Grp C1/10 stories, and all the work that this numbnut did with the CIA. I didn't question him at first, because I have never been in 10th Grp, and I never thought I was the resident expert on squat, so I never suspected that a man like this would lie to me for so long as if it were second nature. Once my 18 series background was circulated, his stories dried up, just as many others who have posted have said. It was when he began to fail swim tests, academic exams, PT tests, land nav ( twice in a row), that I began to wonder. This guy was clueless! Many classmates would pull me to the side and ask what his problem was,, does SF really take morons like him? I had no answer. I would try to defend him by suggesting he was having a bad day, or remind others that no one IS perfect. We all , after all, know of someone on the teams who HAD to have fell thru the cracks. After I asked him to be a secondary instructor for a MOUT train up I was tasked with my doubts were confirmed. This man had never entered a room in his life, let alone spend time with C 1/10. I had my wife do an open source on his ass when I had phone priviledges awarded. Less then 15 minutes exposed this guy for what he was.

The worst part about this story, an older classmate had actually fallen out of a run clutching his chest in the process. By the time I could get cadre and medical support to him ( I was the only one who had the fore thought to go get help) this "18D" was already working on him, and actually refused to allow the Combat Medic to assess him. Everyone believed that he was the real deal, and no one questioned him. As it turned out, the injury was a pulled muscle, not a cardiac arrest.

I personally called him out to the Command, and questioned him about SFAS, Q Course, and names of TM SGTS. I knew he had never even been to Fort Bragg. He claimed his records were sealed, and that the info was "Classified". The Company Commander body slammed him.
The OCS course nailed him for a long list of violations to include Integrity, and Denying Medical Aid to a fellow student. You see, our poser was an Intel Analyst. He dropped out of the Medic AIT Course as a private. He is a civilian now, with a Less Than Honorable Discharge on his record.

My personal feelings since you asked? I know too many of our friends who earned their Tabs and gave all they could for our country to allow this crapstick to tarnish that. I called him out, and I did it face to face. I had always heard of these losers but never thought I would meet one outside a bar.
There is too much info out there on each and everyone of us that you don't need to go to an Internet Hack site, or an Internet Poser site. ( Utility records work just fine, and they are not considered private. ) I say you need to be wary of anything not sourced and credited. No one worth 2 bits relies on a single source of information.

Morale of this story? Better have a solid story, or my wife will crush it in 15 minutes.

She can outrun me too,,, My Life is Hell,,,,,