Utah Gunman

BMT (RIP) · 02-14-2007, 15:12

The 18-year-old gunman who killed five people in a crowded Utah shopping mall was a Bosnian Muslim refugee who was prepared to kill many more, say investigators.

Waiting to see IF MSM jumps on this part of the story. Waiting on a better source for the full story.

BMT

**Team Sergeant** · 02-15-2007, 09:03

"Authorities Seek Motive" I like those headlines...... "No (muslim) religious connection".

BTW here in Arizona we are NOT allowed to carry our concealed weapons in the local (westcor owned) malls. So the only people in our malls with guns would be cops and bad guys. I've never seen a cop in our malls. Thank you westcor.

Authorities Seek Motive for Bosnian Immigrant Teen's Shooting Rampage at Salt Lake City Mall
Thursday, February 15, 2007

SALT LAKE CITY — A shopping mall where five people were gunned down this week reopened, as authorities tried to figure out why a teenage Bosnian immigrant committed the rampage and how he got his hands on a gun.

FBI agent Patrick Kiernan in Salt Lake City said the bureau had no reason to believe Sulejman Talovic, 18, who was killed by police, was motivated by religious extremism or an act of terrorism.

"We are Muslims, but we are not terrorists," the boy's aunt, Ajka Omerovic, said Wednesday at the family's house.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,252111,00.html

**The Reaper** · 02-15-2007, 09:12

Praise Allah that we brought them here to escape the violence and persecution in their own country.

Don't we have enough problems here already without having to import more?

TR

HalveBlue · 02-15-2007, 11:53

Finally a thread I can reply to.

Having grown up in the Salt Lake City area I can assure that the FBI's thoughts on the motive are more than likely accurate.

The kid was from South Salt Lake, which has a relatively high concentration of Bosnians immigrants.

More than likely him being Muslim was incidental. The Bosnian refugees in the Salt Lake area aren't very devout as far as I can recollect.

If anything this is just one more individual in the angry/confused emo youth crowd that sought to take out their anger and sadness on others. Sort of like Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold.

82ndtrooper · 02-15-2007, 12:45

This is yet another example for more legislative gun control ammunition for the Brady bunch clowns. I dont presume to know the Utah state gun laws for age of lawful purchase of a firearm, but you can bet that the firearm used was not sold to him legally.

What is worth noting is that the law enforcement officer was off duty and was carrying concealed. In other words, the right to carry concealed halted this massacre before it elevated to a higher number of deaths and or injuries. Assuming that you could carry concealed on the premisis of the mall, then its worth a longer conversation for the carry concealed laws in the act of defending another under lawful circumstances. How would a law abiding citizen, non LEO, engage this threat without being seen as yet another bad guy ? Maybe COLAWMAN can share any of his thoughts and concerns ?

Assuming that you or I were carrying concealed and where willing to engage this threat, how would one distuingsh him self as a law abiding citizen acting in good faith to protect another ? The confusion would surely get you or I in someones sight picture quickly (LEO) I've never been one to believe that any type of carry concealed badge is worth the $5, but having one around your neck just might enable the LEO's to relize that you are on their side, not the bad guys. Of course the intervention by a citizen may be criticized for just this very reason, but if my child, loved ones and friends are in immenent danger, then I'm either going to take a bullet for them, or enage the threat. I'd prefer to engage them, not take the bullet.

I'd be interested in COLAWMANS thoughts on this type of scenario.

casey · 02-15-2007, 13:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by HalveBlue

Finally a thread I can reply to.

Having grown up in the Salt Lake City area I can assure that the FBI's thoughts on the motive are more than likely accurate.

The kid was from South Salt Lake, which has a relatively high concentration of Bosnians immigrants.

More than likely him being Muslim was incidental. The Bosnian refugees in the Salt Lake area aren't very devout as far as I can recollect.

If anything this is just one more individual in the angry/confused emo youth crowd that sought to take out their anger and sadness on others. Sort of like Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold.

If you want to win a debate, never use this type of double negative as your lead point.

CoLawman · 02-15-2007, 22:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by 82ndtrooper

This is yet another example for more legislative gun control ammunition for the Brady bunch clowns. I dont presume to know the Utah state gun laws for age of lawful purchase of a firearm, but you can bet that the firearm used was not sold to him legally.

What is worth noting is that the law enforcement officer was off duty and was carrying concealed. In other words, the right to carry concealed halted this massacre before it elevated to a higher number of deaths and or injuries. Assuming that you could carry concealed on the premisis of the mall, then its worth a longer conversation for the carry concealed laws in the act of defending another under lawful circumstances. How would a law abiding citizen, non LEO, engage this threat without being seen as yet another bad guy ? Maybe COLAWMAN can share any of his thoughts and concerns ?

Assuming that you or I were carrying concealed and where willing to engage this threat, how would one distuingsh him self as a law abiding citizen acting in good faith to protect another ? The confusion would surely get you or I in someones sight picture quickly (LEO) I've never been one to believe that any type of carry concealed badge is worth the $5, but having one around your neck just might enable the LEO's to relize that you are on their side, not the bad guys. Of course the intervention by a citizen may be criticized for just this very reason, but if my child, loved ones and friends are in immenent danger, then I'm either going to take a bullet for them, or enage the threat. I'd prefer to engage them, not take the bullet.

I'd be interested in COLAWMANS thoughts on this type of scenario.

I am a strong advocate of CCW permits. If my child or wife are at the mall and this scenario plays out, I want every capable citizen within their vicinity armed.

Your concern about LEO response seeing a civilian armed with a handgun as they arrive on scene is spot on. The Ogden officer in Salt Lake City was unable to get his badge out and a Salt Lake officer drew down on him........tense! This is a risk that off duty officers take, some have wound up being shot and even killed by fellow officers in similar situations.

In most instances the responding officer is trained to challenge before pulling the trigger. If those civilians with CCW recognize that they need to "immediately" become passive (drop the gun) they greatly increase their chances of not being shot.

Colorado currently has new legislation regarding our "Make My Day Law." The law will extend to all business owners being allowed to employ deadly force if they feel their life or that of another is threatened. I am a strong supporter of this bill. I know there are drawbacks, but the good that will result, far outweighs the risks. I also believe that there needs to be exceptions to this law. I do not believe this should extend to bars, massage parlors, XXX book stores, or businesses of ill repute.

You will find that I am on record as advocating our schools arming those willing teachers, custodians, and administrators. I believe that the knowledge that a teacher, or several teachers might be armed goes along way toward deterrence. Same goes for business owners. Which Mom and Pop store are you, joe shet the gang banger, going to rob? Odds are they will drive to the Nebraska or Wyoming border and hit a store there.

LTC David Grossman says that we can be sheep when the wolf arrives.....and violence such as this will continue unabated. He chastises, in his seminars, those off duty officers and military personnel who are not armed 24/7.

I believe that the fewer sheep in a school, mall, or church the sooner the wolf again becomes an endangered species. But then again I am jaded. Half the bars in my city have armed guards patting everyone down as they enter the establishment!

CoLawman · 02-15-2007, 23:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by HalveBlue

Finally a thread I can reply to.

Having grown up in the Salt Lake City area I can assure that the FBI's thoughts on the motive are more than likely accurate.

The kid was from South Salt Lake, which has a relatively high concentration of Bosnians immigrants.

More than likely him being Muslim was incidental. The Bosnian refugees in the Salt Lake area aren't very devout as far as I can recollect.

If anything this is just one more individual in the angry/confused emo youth crowd that sought to take out their anger and sadness on others. Sort of like Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold.

In today's world, I do not believe being Muslim and executing innocents is "incidental". You are certainly correct in pointing out that the Bosnian Muslims are not known as fundamentalists.

But we have seen Americans fall prey to fundamentalist propoganda. Adam Gadahn aka Azzam the American, John Walker Lindh, Joey Padilla aka The Dirty Bomber, Ryan Anderson, and Richard Reid aka The Shoe Bomber. There was also the Muslim soldier that killed fellow American soldiers by tossing a grenade. Read the bios on these individuals and you will see that they too were not fundamentalist Muslims.

My point being, his being Muslim would be the first theory I would consider when looking for motive.

casey · 02-16-2007, 11:45

[QUOTE= There was also the Muslim soldier that killed fellow American soldiers by tossing a grenade. Read the bios on these individuals and you will see that they too were not fundamentalist Muslims. [/QUOTE]

That would be X-Sgt, now death row inmate Hasan Akbar. Just finishing up your thoughts Col...

Defender968 · 02-16-2007, 13:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by CoLawman

Your concern about LEO response seeing a civilian armed with a handgun as they arrive on scene is spot on. The Ogden officer in Salt Lake City was unable to get his badge out and a Salt Lake officer drew down on him........tense! This is a risk that off duty officers take, some have wound up being shot and even killed by fellow officers in similar situations.

In most instances the responding officer is trained to challenge before pulling the trigger. If those civilians with CCW recognize that they need to "immediately" become passive (drop the gun) they greatly increase their chances of not being shot.

+1

We've had this happen with 2 officers from our department, one from patrol in and one in plain cloths chasing a criminal with his gun out, badge was around his neck but in the chase flipped over his shoulder, got a little tense, but exactly as CoLawman said, plain cloths officer became completely passive and compliant everyone lived to fight another day.

I hope this is trained in CCW courses; I haven't personally taken a CCW course as I can carry via the Law Enforcement Officers Safety Act, but this should definitely be taught to everyone who is legally able to carry concealed. LEO's are trained to challenge individuals but just as the fog of war effects soldiers under fire, when an LEO responds to shots fired and encounters someone not in uniform with a gun it's going to be a split second judgment call.

In this case I'm just really glad the off duty Ogden officer and on duty Salt Lake officer both made really great split second decisions and we didn't loose a brother to Murphy’s law.

Jgood · 02-16-2007, 13:34

His family came here in 1998 and still DO NOT speak english. I see this as a hugh problem with modern immigrants, they dont try to assimilate into our society.

Smokin Joe · 02-17-2007, 22:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Defender968

LEO's are trained to challenge individuals but just as the fog of war effects soldiers under fire, when an LEO responds to shots fired and encounters someone not in uniform with a gun it's going to be a split second judgment call.

A "shots fired" call is one thing.

The "Active Shooter" call ratchets it up quit a bit.

If you are a citizen who is carrying a CCW do what you think is right under the circumstances. Keep your head on a swivel for additional threats and the Police. When you see the Police be very active in displaying that you are not a threat to them.

In this day and age of cell phones, 911, and dispatching; information gets mixed up quickly. A sheeply individual maybe calling 911 to report you in as an additional threat, even if you are acting in good faith and justifiably engaging an unlawful threat. So keep in mind that when the Police show up they maybe looking for you as a potential Bad Guy.

SouthernDZ · 02-18-2007, 05:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by casey

That would be X-Sgt, now death row inmate Hasan Akbar.

Although Akbar confessed to the crimes, military officials for the most part did not believe his religious beliefs had anything to do with the attack. Conservative journalists (all two of them) attributed his actions to a supposed allegiance to extremist Islam. Liberal journalists (all two million of them) tended to propose that Akbar had simply snapped from the stress of constant racial and religious harassment. Akbar's mother told reporters that she believed intolerance for his race and his Muslim faith created tensions within his unit as it prepared to invade a Muslim country.

Waffle, waffle, waffle.

casey · 02-18-2007, 18:28

Avert your gaze from the statement that Mark Fidel Kools (akbar) made when captured by his "fellow" US military personnel:

"You guys are coming into our countries, and you're going to rape our women and kill our children."

"You guys"? "Our countries ..... to rape our women and kill our children"? This from an American soldier/citizen?

Believer and Infidel, Dar al-Islam and Dar al-Harb. This from a guy who lived in Tenn and LA, and from all indications never left the US.

Nope, nothing to do with the religion of peace here....move along ....nothing to see here....

**Team Sergeant** · 02-19-2007, 08:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Smokin Joe

If you are a citizen who is carrying a CCW do what you think is right under the circumstances. Keep your head on a swivel for additional threats and the Police. When you see the Police be very active in displaying that you are not a threat to them.

If one lacks the appropriate level of SA they should not be carrying a CCW.

Cops arrive, drop weapon, drop to knees, back to cops, hands on head fingers interlocked. Pray cops don't give you a "tune up."

TS