04-11-2004, 21:15
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#1
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Guest
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What did this?
Despite my being married to the TS, I know next to nothing about bullets...that said.
27 year old male comes in with self inflicted GSW to right chest. He didn't clean the house, sister got mad so to spite her he shot himself...
anyway...entrance is the right pec just lateral and superior to the nipple...about 1 cm in size with blast burns. The exit is mid scapular and about 1.5cm in size. The track is filled with the stuff seen on CT... almost like a shot gun kind of stuff but the entrance/exit isn't consistent.
Will ask the police later when they come by but was curious. Will attach the CXR and a cut off the CT to follow.
doc t.
Last edited by Doc T; 04-11-2004 at 21:19.
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04-11-2004, 21:20
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#2
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Guest
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CXR
chest xray
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04-11-2004, 21:21
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#3
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Guest
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chest CT
one cut....
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04-11-2004, 23:29
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#4
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Quiet Professional
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: LA
Posts: 1,653
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Can you tell us what the stuff is like? What color etc?
__________________
Somewhere a True Believer is training to kill you. He is training with minimal food or water, in austere conditions, training day and night. The only thing clean on him is his weapon and he made his web gear. He doesn't worry about what workout to do - his ruck weighs what it weighs, his runs end when the enemy stops chasing him. This True Believer is not concerned about 'how hard it is;' he knows either he wins or dies. He doesn't go home at 17:00, he is home.
He knows only The Cause.
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NousDefionsDoc is offline
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04-11-2004, 23:48
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#5
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large caliber
safety slug maybe???
Good images Doc, Thx...
Eagle
__________________
Primum non Nocere
"I have hung out in dangerous places a lot over the years, from combat zones to biker bars, and it is the weak, the unaware, or those looking for it, that usually find trouble.
Ain't no one getting out of this world alive. All you can do is try to have some choice in the way you go. Prepare yourself (and your affairs), and when your number is up, die on your feet fighting rather than on your knees. And make the SOBs pay dearly."
The Reaper-3 Sep 04
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Eagle5US is offline
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04-11-2004, 23:53
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#6
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With an exit .5 cm larger than the entrance? Could be I guess. Sounds like trash (residue) to me.
__________________
Somewhere a True Believer is training to kill you. He is training with minimal food or water, in austere conditions, training day and night. The only thing clean on him is his weapon and he made his web gear. He doesn't worry about what workout to do - his ruck weighs what it weighs, his runs end when the enemy stops chasing him. This True Believer is not concerned about 'how hard it is;' he knows either he wins or dies. He doesn't go home at 17:00, he is home.
He knows only The Cause.
Still want to quit?
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NousDefionsDoc is offline
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04-12-2004, 00:03
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#7
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Quiet Professional
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Location: Tampa
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well
If there are powder burns...
The plastic push plug may have travelled through un-impaired, especially if it came out of something like a Browning high power...
It explains the pellets is all I was thinking...
PA
__________________
Primum non Nocere
"I have hung out in dangerous places a lot over the years, from combat zones to biker bars, and it is the weak, the unaware, or those looking for it, that usually find trouble.
Ain't no one getting out of this world alive. All you can do is try to have some choice in the way you go. Prepare yourself (and your affairs), and when your number is up, die on your feet fighting rather than on your knees. And make the SOBs pay dearly."
The Reaper-3 Sep 04
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Eagle5US is offline
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04-12-2004, 04:23
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#8
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Guest
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no color... the pellets or shrapnel just show up as white on the studies...
he is now post op with his right upper lobe in a bucket but doing better as now we can actually oxygenate him.
it was pretty amazing the damage done to his rib cage and upper lobe...the ribs under the small entrance room had a defect of about 6 cm that we had to repair with alloderm to avoid a future lung herniation...likewise the exit which again was larger but not by much. The fragments were tiny...about 1-2mm a piece and silver in color.
family said it was a 222 military rifle....
we will see how he does...lucky to be young.
doc t.
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04-12-2004, 06:05
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#9
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Quiet Professional
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Doc:
5.56x45mm (.223 Remington) Ball ammunition (M855 or M193) will do that if it is moving over 2700 fps and may do it if it is over 2500 fps. As the wound was allegedly self-inflicted, this is likely.
As the projo enters tissue and goes through its first yaw cycle, the stress on the jacket causes it to fracture at the cannelure and break up into many small lead and copper particles each creating its own wound track.
I can provide more technical details if you wish, but the injury and description of the particles is consistent with a close range shot from a 5.56mm FMJ or Ball round.
HTH.
TR
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"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming; but who does actually strive to do the deeds; who knows great enthusiasms, the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat." - President Theodore Roosevelt, 1910
De Oppresso Liber 01/20/2025
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The Reaper is offline
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04-12-2004, 08:28
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#10
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Right. Trash.
Lucky young man, however he needs training. When I shoot people in the chest with my Mattel gun, they die. On the spot. He should have double tapped himself. Wimp.
__________________
Somewhere a True Believer is training to kill you. He is training with minimal food or water, in austere conditions, training day and night. The only thing clean on him is his weapon and he made his web gear. He doesn't worry about what workout to do - his ruck weighs what it weighs, his runs end when the enemy stops chasing him. This True Believer is not concerned about 'how hard it is;' he knows either he wins or dies. He doesn't go home at 17:00, he is home.
He knows only The Cause.
Still want to quit?
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NousDefionsDoc is offline
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04-12-2004, 08:47
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#11
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Quiet Professional
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Phoenix, AZ
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Winchester 223 50gr. Ballistic Silvertip (or something like them) might account for the silver fragments and the core would have continued through.
My guess would be this and not military ball ammo.
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"The Spartans do not ask how many are the enemy, but where they are."
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Team Sergeant is offline
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04-12-2004, 10:32
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#12
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Quiet Professional
Join Date: Jan 2004
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Did the wound pattern look like this?
TR
__________________
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming; but who does actually strive to do the deeds; who knows great enthusiasms, the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat." - President Theodore Roosevelt, 1910
De Oppresso Liber 01/20/2025
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The Reaper is offline
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04-12-2004, 10:36
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#13
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Quiet Professional
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The bullet would have fragmented like one of these.
The silver particles would be lead from the core.
TR
__________________
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming; but who does actually strive to do the deeds; who knows great enthusiasms, the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat." - President Theodore Roosevelt, 1910
De Oppresso Liber 01/20/2025
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The Reaper is offline
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04-12-2004, 21:39
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#14
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Guest
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the cavitation was consistent...no large fragments were found ... only the 1-2mm circular like pieces that were scattered within his chest wall and within the lung...you could feel tiny little balls within the parenchyma.
The part we resected was just one big hemmorrhagic blob.... it was no surprise it was making him so difficult to oxygenate.
doc t.
thanx guys.
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