Kimber's response to malfunctions

[Eagle5US]

So, as a follow up to the Kimber discussion thread, I actually wrote to their custom shop regarding the following concerns: misfeeds, misfires, and failure of the slide to lock to the rear. I also touched on the customer service department's policy of having the customer pay for shipping both ways on a handgun that did not perform to the standard that it should be held.

Here is their response:

CPT. Klapperich,

First and foremost thank you for your service to this great nation. In regards to your concerns I will glad to answer.

In terms of jamming or feeding issues, the first thing to check into, is the fact that Kimber pistols are machined to an extremely tight tolerance and usually require at least 300-500 rounds of break-in before function will be flawless. Another thing to check is the degree of lubricity, the Desert Warrior has a Kimpro finish so it requires less oil for proper function; too much oil will bind the pistol up. Last, the description of misfeeds and the slide not locking back after the last round fired is an indication of lack of spring pressure in the magazine spring. If a magazine change does not solve the locking back issue, then the Custom Shop will send the owner a new slide stop with an extended nose which will more positively lockup with the follower in the magazine. After a proper break-in a Kimber pistol is generally 100% reliable, as long as springs are replaced in the proper service schedule.

When a pistol or rifle needs to be returned for service the Custom Shop requires that the owner pay for shipping to the Manufacturing center, however return shipping is always covered by Kimber. Any issue with a Kimber product will be fixed promptly and returned, after extensive testing is preformed. Kimber will stand behind its products no questions asked for as long as you own the pistol.

If you have any further questions/concerns please let me know and I will be glad to help you.

NOW Since I do not OWN a single 1911 style handgun, and none of my other handguns have caused me to even think of the above issues.....I'd like some educated input on whether or not this is a reasonable expectation when purchasing a 1911. Whether I get the Desert Warrior from Kimber or one from Springfield / Olympia Arms / Colt or any other.....do they have the same issues as explained above due to their "tight tolerances".

Thanks

Eagle

[Roguish Lawyer]

OK, I am now convinced that there is no reason for me to buy a Kimber.

[rubberneck]

Kimbers are great guns when they work. Problem is that they, as you have figured out by now, don't always work. Save yourself the heartburn and send it to a smith who will sort it out in short order. It'll cost you shipping one way and the cost of a reliability package but you won't have problems with the gun. Kimber's customer service sucks to put it mildly. You can go round and round with Dennis at Kimber but it will only annoy the hell out of you in the process.

Smith and Wesson, Springfield and Sig tend to have the best customer service and hassle free RMA's for guns that don't work.

[vsvo]

Originally Posted by Roguish Lawyer

OK, I am now convinced that there is no reason for me to buy a Kimber.

+1

That shipping policy is pure BS (this is also followed by HK in Alabama). As a civilian, non-FFL holder, I have to go to my nearest UPS hub and ship a pistol overnight, even if it's going back to the manufacturer for repairs. At the cheapest overnight rate, with insurance and the required adult signature, that works out to be about $50. There's a local dealer who will ship for me at his lower rate plus a nominal fee, but he won't accept transfers from CDNN so I refuse to do business with him. Other dealers charge a transfer fee on top of the shipping price. When I sent my Springfield 1911 back for warranty repair they covered shipping both ways, and Sig used to send out pre-printed labels as well.

[Snaquebite]

I have read that some people replaced their mags with Wilson Combat mags and had no problems with feeding and jamming after that. Not sure how valid that is, but figured I'd mention it.

[The Reaper]

I have been through this before with other manufacturers, and most said the same thing.

All guns need break in rounds before reliability can be guaranteed. Frankly, I would not trust a carry pistol I had not put several hundred rounds of ball through, and at least a hundred rounds of my carry ammo, with the mags that I intended to carry with.

Note- when you get the gun, mark the mags with numbers, and keep a round count during break-in noting when malfunctions occurred, what type they were, which mag it was, and what ammo you were using. After the 500 rounds, you can stop the specific count and just keep a round count by boxes of ammo fired.

Some guns will run great out of the box. SIGs, HKs, and Glocks are notoriously reliable. Others (not just 1911s) need the break-in. Frankly, with tight tolerances, the machined surfaces have to wear in. Do you get in a brand new car and go to race it?

With most centerfire pistols sold in the US, the owner will never put 100 rounds through it, so the gun is never fully broken in or tested. It is bought and tossed into a nightstand, safe, or glove compartment, many with no test firing at all. Others may merely have a mag or two through them. Only competitors, serious plinkers, or cops will put more than 500 rounds through a centerfire pistol.

I do not like the comment about running the gun dry, but if it is their recommendation, I would try it. I use plenty of Militech oil and TW-25B grease. Your mileage may vary. Running it slightly dry to start with will increase wear on engagement surfaces, which is not necessarily a bad thing, but it may make the gun less reliable during the break-in period.

My biggest beef is that if I have to fire $100 worth of ammo for break-in, and have problems, is it the mags, the ammo, the lube, or the gun? So I send it back ($50 for UPS overnight, due to their employee theft problems, thank you very much), and they say that they have fixed it. Now I have to fire another 500 rounds trouble free before I can carry it. Or send it back again for another problem. I almost wish that the maker would fire the 500 round break in and bill me for the ammo, but I can always use the practice with malfunction drills and mag changes.

To answer your question, yes, that is typical for most 1911 makers. I have seen $2500 Les Baers and Wilsons going back and forth the same way. Maybe nine out of ten will run fine. The other one will be a PITA. A Larry Vickers, a Hilton Yam, or a Heinie gun will run perfectly out of the box, after you slap down several grand a wait a few years. With SIGs, Glocks, and HKs, the "bad gun" ratio is probably much lower, maybe one in a thousand.

The bottom line is that I know of no 1911 that I would carry for social purposes out of the box. If you need that, buy something else, put a couple of mags of your duty ammo through it, and you should likely be good to strap it on.

A well made 1911, once broken in, is capable of running reliably like a top. It will still require periodic maintenance to keep it that way, likely more than a more modern type of pistol.

If it could not be made to run reliably, would the world champions of action shooting carry them? At the same time, you have to ask yourself if you are willing to pay the price to carry a reliable 1911. It will be more than a Glock, or a SIG, or an HK. You will likely have to look around to find a good 1911 gunsmith, since there are a lot of gun tinkerers and butchers with Dremel tools out there proclaiming to be smiths.

As with ARs, you can buy a good custom gun, a good factory gun, a bad factory gun, or a Frankengun. The better builders, like MSTN, prefer to fire the weapon for break-in and accuracy testing before shipping it. You just pay for the ammo, and you know it will shoot and run well (with the right mags and ammo) when you get it. Others do not, and you have to break it in yourself, and maybe ship it back a couple of times.

Used guns have to be looked at very closely. I always try to buy from a dealer with a liberal return policy.

Why should you buy a 1911? For the same reason people buy Corvettes, Ferraris, and $75,000 motorcycles. Because you like them. If you just want the gun to reliably go bang for the least amount of money, buy a Glock or a XD. If you want to spend a little more money, buy a SIG. If you don't care what it costs, and want to shoot tight groups as well, out of the box, buy an HK.

Be prepared to spend the time and money to get a good 1911 that runs, get a stock 1911 and break it in/have a real smith tune it properly, or just buy a non-1911 that has proven to run well out of the box.

Those are your COAs as I see it.

TR

[Eagle5US]

Holy Smokes Sir.

THANK YOU for the informative and educated response. What booth are you going to be running at SHOT next year

Eagle

[jatx]

Eagle,

If you want a railed 1911 with perfect reliability, keep an eye out for Nighthawk's old Enforcer model. They had 99% of the same features as their Vickers or 10-8 models, but retailed around $1800. Many were built on Caspian railed receivers. I picked one up that I have posted pics of here previously, and it has been nothing but super (a word that could also be used to describe the customer service). Gently used ones pop up occasionally in the $1300 range, close enough to the Kimber to be worth considering. Good luck!

[Team Sergeant]

Originally Posted by Eagle5US

So, as a follow up to the Kimber discussion thread, I actually wrote to their custom shop regarding the following concerns: misfeeds, misfires, and failure of the slide to lock to the rear. I also touched on the customer service department's policy of having the customer pay for shipping both ways on a handgun that did not perform to the standard that it should be held.

Here is their response:

CPT. Klapperich,

First and foremost thank you for your service to this great nation. In regards to your concerns I will glad to answer.

In terms of jamming or feeding issues, the first thing to check into, is the fact that Kimber pistols are machined to an extremely tight tolerance and usually require at least 300-500 rounds of break-in before function will be flawless. Another thing to check is the degree of lubricity, the Desert Warrior has a Kimpro finish so it requires less oil for proper function; too much oil will bind the pistol up. Last, the description of misfeeds and the slide not locking back after the last round fired is an indication of lack of spring pressure in the magazine spring. If a magazine change does not solve the locking back issue, then the Custom Shop will send the owner a new slide stop with an extended nose which will more positively lockup with the follower in the magazine. After a proper break-in a Kimber pistol is generally 100% reliable, as long as springs are replaced in the proper service schedule.

When a pistol or rifle needs to be returned for service the Custom Shop requires that the owner pay for shipping to the Manufacturing center, however return shipping is always covered by Kimber. Any issue with a Kimber product will be fixed promptly and returned, after extensive testing is preformed. Kimber will stand behind its products no questions asked for as long as you own the pistol.

If you have any further questions/concerns please let me know and I will be glad to help you.

NOW Since I do not OWN a single 1911 style handgun, and none of my other handguns have caused me to even think of the above issues.....I'd like some educated input on whether or not this is a reasonable expectation when purchasing a 1911. Whether I get the Desert Warrior from Kimber or one from Springfield / Olympia Arms / Colt or any other.....do they have the same issues as explained above due to their "tight tolerances".

Thanks

Eagle

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Funny, HK's don't require 300-500 rounds for break-in. I own about eight of them and have NEVER had a malfunction. Enjoy your Kimber.

TS

[Peregrino]

Eagle5US - TR gave you the "real deal" info. I've shot a fair nunber of TS's "modern" pistols and I'll keep my Kimber and Colt 1911s, thank you very much. If you get one that you like/trust, it will still be serving your great-grandchildren 100 years from now. Tactical tupperware may eventually meet that standard but IMHO it isn't there yet. Detractors can say what they want, the 1911 still sets the standard by which ergonomics and trigger pull are judged. FWIW I pay attention to maintenance (but I'm not fanatical - it just isn't required), I buy/use good magazines, I "broke them in" with quality ammo, and I continue to shoot and carry them regularly without problems. Pistols are like wives - an extremely personal choice that either works out or not and that none of your buddies will ever completely understand or agree with. Bottom line - your satisfaction is what's important. My .02 - Peregrino

BTW - I had to ship my firearms via FEDEX, next day air, expensive as h***. UPS in Fayetteville wouldn't touch them. Mine went back to have an ambi safety fitted so I got stuck with the whole bill - not a happy camper.

[x SF med]

Originally Posted by Team Sergeant

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Funny, HK's don't require 300-500 rounds for break-in. I own about eight of them and have NEVER had a malfunction. Enjoy your Kimber.

TS

Jefe - tell us how you really feel about 1911's sometime, ok?

[The Reaper]

When the TS dies, he is going to get to heaven and Saint Peter is going to ask him, "Glock or 1911?"

He will then request reassignment instructions to Hell.

TR

[Eagle5US]

Originally Posted by The Reaper

When the TS dies, he is going to get to heaven and Saint Peter is going to ask him, "Glock or 1911?"

He will then request reassignment instructions to Hell.

TR

Originally Posted by Team Sergeant
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Eagle

[Team Sergeant]

Originally Posted by Peregrino

Eagle5US - TR gave you the "real deal" info. I've shot a fair nunber of TS's "modern" pistols and I'll keep my Kimber and Colt 1911s, thank you very much. If you get one that you like/trust, it will still be serving your great-grandchildren 100 years from now.

So will most boat anchors.

I've no doubts that a 1911 shot routinely will not last that long; not without several major over-hauls.

Don't forget I've also shot 10,000's of thousands of rounds from 1911's. I've owned quite a few also. Years ago I even got to know my 1911 gunsmith by his first name.

Never again will I place my life in harms way with a 1911, not when there are better tools on the market today.

TS

[incommin]

I wondered when a reference to Colt's 1911 would come up.. I've carried a Commander (personal protection and off duty gun) for some 18 years. The gun was "slicked up" by the Colt gun shop after I bought it...... she is cleaned monthly....... sees about 500 rounds a year...... and has never failed to function as designed. I've carried it so much and fired so many 1911's while in the Army that I have issues with my department's issued duty gun...... a S&W model 457.

What ever weapon you carry, you got to have faith in it!!!!!!!

I trust my Colt.

Jim